Pops said: "I have many problems with socialism, but by far the most
important is the issue of personal freedom. Even if Big Government could provide
less expensive health care than the private sector, it represents the loss of
personal freedom to obtain whatever health care I wish to have and am personally
willing to pay for."So do you op for personal freedom, and not
use the local police or fire departments, I mean sure is a lot more expensive to
hire people to sit and watch your property personally, instead of socializing
the costs. But according to your logic, your freedom is being
compromised by having joint interest? So do you have your own
personal property watchers, or are you happy to have some socialized services?
Bernie Sanders has some kooky ideas, but he has a following because he is one of
the only politicians that doesn't sound like he's in the pockets of
special interests. His candor is refreshing and while his rhetoric sometimes
reminds me of the student running for class president (chocolate milk in all of
the drinking fountains!) I feel like he really is genuine in his zeal.Republican or Democrat there is no denying that money has too much influence
in our politics. I think it would be wise for both parties to pay attention to
the thing that makes Sanders popular with so many people : He is looking out for
the common man.Not passing laws selling your browser history for ad
revenue. Not trying to ease the air and water quality standards so that a
factory upstream can save a few bucks. Not trying to save profits for
pharmaceutical companies or big banks from ever having to take responsibility
for reckless investments. He is laser focused on ways to make lives of regular
people better. As a Mormon and a Christian I find nothing wrong with
that. You don't like him? Vote for someone else. The political spectrum has
room for everyone.
I will credit Bernie Sanders with being candid on where he stands on the
issues. At least we know what we are getting if he was elected. Not so much
with Trump. As the Democrats move to the left and the Republicans continue to
fracture we will continue to have divided government and little if any progress
on healthcare, immigration and other issues critical to voters. It is
difficult to find common ground when both political parties have no desire to
compromise. Working with the opposition is now considered an act of treason
and a sure path to being voted out of office by party loyalists.
Sanders is an accurate figurehead for the Democratic Party.
@marxist - I have many problems with socialism, but by far the most important is
the issue of personal freedom. Even if Big Government could provide less
expensive health care than the private sector, it represents the loss of
personal freedom to obtain whatever health care I wish to have and am personally
willing to pay for. If millions of people were willing to put their lives on the
line on the battlefield to give me freedom, I'm surely not going to vote it
away because I might get cheaper health care or free stuff.
Bernie Sanders and his socialist "free stuff for everyone" policies do
have a great appeal to people who don't expect to have to pay for all that
"free stuff". Perhaps they have never bothered to observed the dismal
failure of socialism in other countries, especially after they "run out of
other people's money to spend."But, Bernie still sounds
great to some people. Others prefer to take advantage of the opportunity to
pursue happiness and become filthy rich through hard work and innovation, rather
than subsisting at slightly better than poverty levels and doing as little as
possible to enrich their situation (other than clamor for the evil rich to fork
over their earnings.).Utah is not a place where Bernie's ideas
will appeal to a majority of people. If ti does, then we are truly doomed.
MarxistMarx understood labor’s plight, which would actually bring
capitalism down. Um, did you not observe the collapse of the USSR and the
break-up of the eastern, socialist bloc? Which system actually failed/was
brought down? Are you unaware that capitalism has brought China out of its
economic dark ages and improved the quality of life for billions around the
world over the last 30 years?And we kept a very corrupt career
politician and her equally corrupt cabal out of the WHFrozenFavorability and respect are not the same thingsKasich did not get
the nomination, but he was not booed off the stage. Had he tried to speak to
liberals, though, he would have been given how absolutely intolerant they are.
re:marxistMarx wrote the The Communist Manifesto in 1848 which is
the basis for modern Communism. I think this is enough said. Communism and
Capitalism are polar opposites even as Communist China or Russia and their
social/economic model are opposites from that of the United States constitution.
One is based on BIG all-powerful governement and the other actually restricts
government and its powers and perfers that the power reside not at the federal
level but at the state and local level. One is based on a free market economy
while the other has nothing to do with freedom but instead imposes its will from
the the top down on the people. Anyway - this is obvious stuff we
are talking about here. I'm not suggesting you are a bad person for
preferring Communism over free market Capitalism, I am just saying please
don't try to marry the two because they are indeed opposites in every way.
America was NEVER founded upon the principles of the Commuist Manifesto...quite
the opposite. Communism is a world wide failure in every major population.
Capitalism produced the worlds greatest superpower.
@banliberals"No one really respects Bernie"He
consistently had the highest favorability ratings of any of the 2016 candidates
in either party. @Thid Barker "Today's democratic
party would boo JFK off the stage at their conventions and rallies and he would
be shouted down and protested at most liberal universities in America! "The closest the GOP had to Reagan was John Kasich who was considered to
not be conservative enough for the radicals who voted for Cruz or Trump.
If the Utah Democratic Party wants to survive, its tent needs to be big enough
and welcoming enough to have a significant number of moderate active Mormons
inside the tent (think James E. Faust)."Republican-lite" may
not seem very appealing to soldiers in the army of Bernie Sanders. But, at
least it got Jim Matheson, Bill Orton, Wayne Owens and Scott Matheson elected in
Utah.Fully embracing Bernie Sanders and 90% of DNC policies in Utah
is like hanging a sign on the door that says, "Active Mormons need not
I have never been more disgusted with the Republican party than I was during the
last election cycle. I unregistered from the party last October. Had the
Democrats had an even half-way decent presidential candidate, with a half-way
decent chance of winning, they might have gotten my vote. I will continue to
vote almost exclusively for conservative candidates, whether they be Republican,
Democratic, or Independent, if I believe they are honest, sincere public
servants who have palatable policy views. As it is, with the national Democratic
party sliding ever more to the left, it is unlikely they will ever get my vote.
The state Democratic party shifting further left and continuing to openly
disdain the religious majority in the state is not going to encourage an
independent voter like myself to come into their camp.
@banliberals "Having Bernie Sanders as the leader of the DNC is heaven to
the GOP! Its the gift that keeps on giving! "You Utah
conservatives had not processed what has happened to our country. We have
elected a very corrupt business tycoon who has surrounded himself with fascists.
They have targeted the American middle class, and marked them for destruction.
Why? Because they believe moderate income folk are incompetent and don't
deserve to live. You right wingers ought to at least try to figure
out what Steve Bannon means as a self-described "Leninist."
@ Patriot: You are absolutely correct! Today's democratic party would boo
JFK off the stage at their conventions and rallies and he would be shouted down
and protested at most liberal universities in America! The radical left has
completed their take over of the democratic party! No room for moderates any
longer! The party of; "Ask not what your country can do for you but ask what
you can do for your country" is dead! All that remain of a once proud,
freedom loving, patriotic party are a few very angry liberals, very nasty
feminists, volunteer victims, entitlement damaged America hating race baiters
and dividers and Trump haters! Behold, today's democratic party!
We need a work ethic of organizing to win elections. People are mosltly the
same. We want mosltly the same things. Affordable heslth care ( I refused to
carry Matheson's anti Obama's ACA literature), more funds for teacher
salaries (we are still last in the nation), clean air (time to start working on
this) and less military (time to focus on domestic issues), care for public
lands and a transition to clean energy economy. We need to stick to issues
people care about, that are not being addressed by an extreme monopoly party
that is getting worse. We need an ethic of willingness to walk door to door and
talk directly to your neighbors. Going to conventions, just isan't enough.
The recent Salt Lake County Convention was an example of what not to do. No
trainings, no discussion, no debate about what to do. Just elected new county
party leaders. Then the new leaders start by campaigning for others, rather than
focus on the county party. Insiders don't have all the answers, or we would
be winning elections. We need new leadership committed to engaging the
grassroots. Go Jjlianne Waters Go.
@patriot "Bernie Sanders is an old, unhinged, full blown Socialist who
rejects everything in Capitalism and wants to substitute something more akin to
the Communist Manifesto for our Constitution." I am a socialist.
I am a Marxian economist. And you are completely mistaken about where we
socialists are. It's too bad you don't know who Marx was. So
I'll tell you. Marx was the third of the three great classical economists.
The other two were Adam Smith and David Ricardo. Marx borrows from both, and
completes both.Marx understood fully the capabilities of capitalism,
but he understood that most profit comes from the exploitation of labor power.
He recognized capitalism as vastly superior to what went before - feudalism. He
saw capitalism as a natural phase of human progress. But he understood
labor's plight, which would eventually bring it down. This is happening.
That's why we must develop socialist institutions of all types, including
and especially small worker self directed enterprises. And yes there is a need
for big time socialism in areas like health care. And, both Bernie
and I insist on democratic change.
Republican lite has,rendered the Dem party irrelevant. A work ethic of reaching
out to voters and being their champion is the issue. The issues are the same for
left and right. We all want mosltly the same thing. Affordable ealth care (I
refused to carry Matheson literature opposing Obamas ACA), more funding for
teachers, clean air, less military and more focus on domestic needs. Go Julianne
Waters. Every district is different. She is committed to walking door to door
anc talk to voters directly. Untill Democrats get a work ethic, conventions will
never be enough. The Salt Lake County Democratic Convemtion was completely
devoid of training, debate or discussion. We elected county officers, who became
campaign staff not county officers. The party doesn't know what its doing.
Thats why they don't win. We need champions like Bernie to remind us we
dont want Billionaires to run the country, it doesnt work. Period.
I actaully think that Bernie Sanders IS the Democrat party now. Gone are all
the moderate voices such as Joe Manchin and Dianne Feinstein ...at least to the
extent these senators are now booed at Democrat party rallies as Feinstein was
recently for rejecting a single payer -- full Socialist-- health care system.
Bernie Sanders is an old, unhinged, full blown Socialist who rejects everything
in Capitalism and wants to substitute something more akin to the Communist
Manifesto for our Constitution. If you doubt me just go back and listen to some
of his carzy rhetoric of the past year from free college to 80% taxes on
corporations. Also this goes beyong just crazy Bernie -- it extends to all the
far left media sites and lobby groups. The Democrat party is actually dead and
even Bernie suggested the name be replaced with the American Socialist Party.
Yes this is the same Socialist thinking that sent Greece into bankruptsy and
desperation having to be bailed out by the EU. The toxic-anti free speech-far
left college environment now feeds this lunany into the minds of immature young
American kids. JFK couldn't get elected for todays Democrat party.
Having Bernie Sanders as the leader of the DNC is heaven to the GOP! Its the
gift that keeps on giving! No one really respects Bernie, you know the guy who
never had a job until he ran for the senate? And Obama was a
disaster and has left the DNC spiraling downward, as Trump has accomplished more
in 4 months than Obama in 8 years ......of course he really did that in just 4
days, it wasn't hard to beat Barack Hussein Obama!
I have been a registered Republican my entire life, but have crossed party lines
numerous times to vote for who I believed was the best candidate--Matheson for
Governor, Owens for US House Representative, McDonald for State
Representative...to name a few. These men were moderates, and were able to
connect with moderate Republicans. I voted for McMullin, and am uncertain about
where I will land politically as I do not trust Trump and am frustrated with
many aspects of the state Republican Party.Having said that, turnout
to hear Sanders was, I believe, an anomoly. Future elections are needed to
truly understand the support of young voters.I believe one thing is
certain, and that is moving Left will hurt the Democrat Party in Utah.
"When party leadership is to the left, it makes it difficult to send a
message the party is broad-based," Davis said.______________________________With all respect for Richard Davis, I
disagree with him on this. Harry Truman warned that the Democratic Party should
never try to be the conservative party because when faced with a choice between
two conservative parties, voters will choose the real thing (the GOP).
It’s not entirely coincidental that recent Republican resurgence came with
Barack Obama trying to occupy the political center.The Democratic
Party needs a new liberal vision. That means articulating that in a way that
makes sense to Americans and appeals to their best instincts. Going back to FDR,
that is when the party has surged ahead in finding broad support.
When Bernie Sanders (who, in addition to being in his dotage, is so far off the
scale that he doesn't even self-identify as a Democrat) is the face of the
Democratic Party, it's pretty safe to safe the party has lurched leftward.
No one wants to admit it, but there was no bigger factor in Donald Trump's
election than the "progressive" presidency of his predecessor Barack
Obama. How could anyone with half a brain conclude that the Dems' ills lie
in not being liberal ~enough~? Bill Clinton, for all his faults, understood the
term "over-reach" and knew that a pivot to the center was a wise
political strategy when unfavorable winds are blowing.
The amazing thing I see from demos. is that they don't actually blame
Barack Obama for their downward slide.After the disastrous Bush
years, at least we Republicans placed blame directly where it needed to be -
with George Bush.Demos. don't seem to have ANY misgivings
whatsoever about 8 yrs. of disastrous Obama policies!
Bernie is pure socialism, which does not and has never, ever worked anywhere.
So, yes, I hope the Demcrats go as far left as they can so we moderates and
conservatives can continue to elect even more Constitutional conservatives.
If the Utah Democratic party moves further left it will have support from
nothing more than 15% - 20% of hard core believers at best. It is true that
"Republican Lite" hasn't turned many to the party, primarily
because of the litmus issue of abortion. But moving further left in a
moderate-to-conservative state like Utah is a ticket to further obscurity.
I really wish all elections were non-partisan. We should be voting for people,
not parties. Parties - like many like organizations are solely there for their
own self preservation, and not actually achieving anything. They are fund
raising machines that at the end of the day add little value to the political
process. You can see by many of the comments posted that this
isn't about any particular policy, but rather rooting for a team. Many of
the problems needing solutions could be funded by the wasteful money spent by
elections. If we can't get rid of the parties, we should at least do what
Canada has done and dramatically shorten the election cycle to a couple of
months rather than the years.So frustrating reading these comments
where you could confuse this for a BYU versus U of U debate. Completely
I have no problem with them moving further to the left and further marginalizing
themselves. Just like the dems did not learn from forced health insurance in MA
and what a disaster that was before they forced Obamacare on us, this current
crop of dems does not seem interested in learning from the disastrous
candidacies of Mr. Weinholtz and Mr. Snow. Yeah, keep nominating candidates
without a snowball’s chance of getting elected. Is there any wonder why
the GOP has a lock on Utah?MarxistBernie’s turnout was
due to his opponent. Who on earth views hilary as GOP-lite? Today’s dems
are not left? Really?EsquireYou WANT the church involved in
politics?ThidLiberals have not lost control of the SCOTUS. At
best it is now 4 liberals, 4 conservatives, and 1 in between, though Kennedy
votes with the liberals enough it’s really 5-4 liberal.
It's amusing how liberal-leaning people choose to move to Utah-- And
then are surprised, offended, upset or complain when a majority of Utahns hold
to the moral and ethical ideals Utahns are known for.Yes, the
move-in outsider segment will continue to lean farther to the left.And please, no mention of how GOP Utahns voted for Trump. That was just
a backlash against 8 years of Obama, the determination not to have that followed
by another Pres Clinton and the failure of the the rest of the country GOP to
elect a moral, rational Romney when they had the chance. Any of those
things going correct (instead of the way they did) would have meant there was no
such thing as a Pres Trump today.
If the Utah Democratic Party shifts further left, they may be signing their
death warrant. Some may lament this.But, increasing diversity and
new factions and caucuses have already emerged within the traditional Republican
ranks in Utah. There are TEA Party types (Lee), Never Trumpers (Romney),
moderate Republicans (former Senator Bennett and his posterity, and perhaps the
2017 version of Orrin Hatch), and libertarians. There is enough variety on the
traditional Republican side in Utah to keep democracy honest and flourishing.So, Utah Democrats may choose to move left. But, no need for the
average Utahn to mourn the inevitable loss of all significant political power
for the Utah Democratic Party.The rejection of Richard Davis as
State Party Chairman has likely already etched the "RIP" on that
There are many issues. Going to the left on some of them will certainly not bode
well in Utah, while other issues are much more acceptable. Hopefully, this will
create room for the rise of more independents and a new third party. I am not
sure the other third parties out there will be able to capitalize unless they
change some of their views.
Barack Obama has left the Democratic party in a spiraling downward freefall!
During his watch, they have lost the white house, they have lost control of the
house of representatives, lost control of the Senate, lost major influence on
the SCOTUS and over 65% of all governorships in America and about a thousand
other state and county offices nationwide! They look to socialist Bernie Sanders
for leadership but he will be 78 years old when the next presidential election
happens! True to form they offer nothing for the moderate voter, their only
message is Trump is despicable and those who support him are
"deplorable" (to quote Hillary) therefore, vote for me! Never learning
anything from their loses, they now double down on their lack of giving voters
any reason to vote for them and hold hate Trump meetings all over the country,
attacking police and making complete fools of themselves! Unless the demos come
up with a reason to elect them (other than how despicable they think President
Trump is), they will continue to lose elections, influence and power!
So yes, the democrat party will continue to further down the road of leftism.Which also means that Republicans will continue to dominate the state
"We thought that even a Republican would not be as bad as he was because he
was very damaging to the image of Democrats. He was Republican light."That's an ignorant idea. I'd much rather have someone I agree
with say... 70% of the time, than someone I agree with 10% of the time. If I
want someone that I agree with 95% of the time instead then I vote for that
person in the primary but in the general I'm definitely going for the 70 vs
@Esquire is on the right track. The LDS/non-LDS proxy fight that the parties
have devolved into has been hurting our political system here. Those who are
primarily interested in building the influence of the Republican Party love it
because they're on the winning side of that proxy fight but those who are
interested in limited government lose out because it doesn't matter what a
candidate believes about big/small/or no government they will get elected
anywhere outside Salt Lake County so long as they are anti-abortion and have an
"R" next to their name on the ballot.Moving left
wouldn't necessarily be a problem if doing so wasn't presented in the
form of a major slap in the face to anything traditional (see the
“Saturday's Voyeur” stunt). From that perspective, Bernie
Sanders is a good example. He promotes a radical view compared to
"republican-lite" but frames it in opposition to crony-capitalism rather
than opposition to family values.I don't think his policies are
wise but "let's try to give everyone a hand up" is worth talking
about much more than "let's abandon all restraint on personal
Lets not confuse excitement for Bernie for anything more in many cases as an
"anyone but Hillary" sentiment in many in the primaries. Same thing
with the general election, many voted Trump not because they liked Trump, they
just disliked Hillary more.Bernie will have his followers. Like
Trump, he represents an anti-establishment sentiment felt on both sides. But that should not be interpreted as a broad base support for his
agenda. Utah Democrats, if they really want to succeed, need to adopt a
pragmatic centrist movement. Abandon extreme positions - the conservative core
is at risk right now and at some point Utah's pro-business position will
start rubbing the average person the wrong way as traffic, pollution, school
quality and resource management all become collateral damage to the extreme
pro-business agenda.There is a real opportunity for a
centrist/moderate party platform here.... doesn't matter which one... to
take advantage of the current situation.
Amazing how people want to go to socialism and big government. They do not work
very well. And they lead to autocracy. They have a siren call which acadamia
has res[ponded to and taught our youth. It is a path to the likes of Cuba,
Venezuela and others.
Will the party shift farther left? I hope so! The farther left they shift the
less likely they will ever win another election. America rejects socialism.
Not sure about the Utah Democrats, but the national Democrat party has been
shifting to the far left for years.
The Democratic Party can bring in the left, but it also needs to appeal to
centrist, mainstream Mormons. There are two issues. First, with the rise of
Orrin Hatch, 1970s, Republicans have successfully and cravenly co-opted the LDS
Church, convincing many Mormons that one can't be a good member of the
Church and be a Democrat. The two concepts are now connected, and despite a
some weak efforts, the Church hasn't done a good job dispelling that
erroneous notion. Further, the GOP has misrepresented the platform and
positions of the Dems, so the impression sticks with constant reinforcement.
The second issue is on Utah Democrats. For the past 30 years or so, those in
control of the Utah Democratic Party have eschewed mainstream Mormons. Peter
Billings, a past party chairman, vowed not to allow a Mormon to be the
Dems' candidate for Governor. Other examples exist. The Dems must figure
out how to bring Mormons into the tent, not make it the party of non-Mormons.
If that is the driving motivation, the Democrats will forever be a minority
party, unlike the old days when Utah would go back and forth, and was well
served by Democratic leaders.
We need to understand something: with the rise of Bernie Sanders and especially
Donald Trump and his election, nothing will ever be the same in American
politics AND Utah politics. Old assumptions must be cast aside.The
old belief that mainstream LDS will only vote Republican may be obsolete. One
thing for sure though - things will never be the same.BTW, the Utah
Democratic Party is not leftist at all currently. It needs to become a leftist
party to grow.
Sanders might be a registered democrat but that not actually the party he
belongs to. This younger naive generation that believes in and supports people
who wield entitlement spending initiatives are reckless.
"Richard Davis, a BYU political science professor and columnist for the
Deseret News...said Democrats risk becoming more unpalatable to Utah's
largely conservative voters [if they swing left]."The turnout
for Sanders showed Utahns want a real choice. The Democrats have tried to be
the Republican Lites, and it won't sell.If Democrats don't
move to the left they will get some encouragement from a socialist party, like
what happened in the 1930's. The country wanted change. They
got it with Trump, but not the changes they really wanted.
As a 40 year registered republican I have never once checked a straight ticket.
At times I have voted for Democrats locally and in state wide races. I
certainly could have voted for Mr. Swinton for Senate but Utah democrats were
determined to go as far left as they could in their primary. They push Bernie
Sanders an avowed socialist. Dr. Davis is correct in his assessment of Utah
voters. You would think democrats would learn a lesson from this past election
and give those of us who don't just vote party a decent choice.