After falling again to Utah, BYU faces another challenge vs. No. 10 Wisconsin

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  • Procoug Layton, UT
    Sept. 11, 2017 10:01 p.m.

    Captain L is spot on as to where the program needs to go.
    “we need to have our offense play more of the style we did under Scovile/Holmgren. Pass first, set up the run with the pass, especially passes in the flat.”

    During those years it was the short pass that was the running game. Sure we had the occasional hand off and it normally went for decent yardage because we were absolutely pass happy. 3 yards, 5 yards, 10 yards and once in a while we would throw it long to Chronister or Jones etc.

    It was beautiful and nobody has really replicated it in modern day football.

    BYU went away from that when Norm Chow took over. The phrase “we must establish the run” ruined the greatness of the offense.

    Ty needs to go back to that original BYU playbook. Everything is a read at the line and it is extremely hard to defend.

    The 49ers ran the same offense during their hay day.

  • taylormade1 Springville, UT
    Sept. 11, 2017 9:39 p.m.

    Let me just put it this way ... If the Y were to go back to the MWC they would stand a better chance at getting to a New Years Bowl game than the Utes currently do playing in the pac12 and that is a fact ... How many New Years Bowl games have the Utes played in since joining the pac12 ? Boise State goes to a New Years Bowl game on an average of about every other year and the Y has actually proven that they can beat them on occasion ...

  • Captain L Provo, UT
    Sept. 11, 2017 8:47 p.m.

    london : I like your comments, your usually pretty much right on target. BYU is much better off being an independent, the money is better, the number of quality teams we get to play each year is greater than when we were a member of the MWC . Like Holmoe said we haven't been putting millions of dollars into upgrading multiple sports facilities to then drop sports, it won't happen. Sataki will gradually get the recruiting upgraded, it is improving now.
    Detmer needs to make changes and adjustments to what he is trying to do. Mangum isn't playing well, he needs to settle down and play smarter/cooler. IMO we need to have our offense play more of the style we did under Scovile/Holmgren. Pass first, set up the run with the pass, especially passes in the flat.

  • at long last. . . Kirksville , MO
    Sept. 11, 2017 8:23 p.m.

    London Josh - Having lived in Wisconsin for over twenty years, and being a UW-Madison graduate, I am just wondering about the 'Wiscy' you keep using. I have never in my life heard that used in any way, any where. Why are you doing that?

  • idablu Idaho Falls, ID
    Sept. 11, 2017 7:32 p.m.

    Agree with london_josh.
    No question joining a P5 gives BYU the best of all worlds--better money, better exposure, better competition, and better recruiting.
    But until that option avails itself, I just don't see a better home for BYU than independence.

    Back on topic. While I agree that we can't blame all the offensive woes on the QB, it has to begin with the QB. While it is true Mangum threw to tightly covered receivers quite often, he also underthrew very open receivers and didn't even see a lot of open receivers because he didn't go through his progressions. I think the main reason his receivers were so tightly covered is because of his "tunnel vision." He couldn't look off his primary target. Ute defenders were keying off his "telegraphs" and congregating to the ball. As a result they could keep more defenders in the box to stymie BYU's running game.
    My sources (who would know) tell me Beau Hoge actually played better in the Spring and Fall camps. I really don't think he could do any worse. He should get some playing time. It would have to come from Sitake because I don't think Detmer would replace him unless he was severely injured.

  • eagle Provo, UT
    Sept. 11, 2017 7:22 p.m.

    Here's the thing, some people think that the only way BYU could play say Wisconsin is being independent. Not true. When BYU was in the MWC, it played teams like Texas, Notre Dame, Florida State, UCLA, Texas A & M, Pitt, Washington and others from what we would call P5 conferences. MWC teams play these teams right now in their non-league schedule. But after the first few games, where BYU loses two or three games, the rest of the season is "meh". Being in a conference gives players a goal. And the one game at a time deal just doesn't cut it when you're playing UMass. BYU needs to get in a conference and if the Big 12 doesn't call soon, and I don't think it will, it needs to rejoin the MWC, redevelop some regional rivalries and still get -12 games with marquee teams from other conferences just like Boise State does or say Alabama, who just schedule Fresno State this year and Colorado State the year before.

  • london_josh lincoln, CA
    Sept. 11, 2017 6:56 p.m.

    Sooner,

    You are right about the NY6, it's basically a "so you guys won't complain about the playoff snub" bone thrown to the G5 teams in a process that they never had a shot at anyway. Brilliant concession.

    BYU plays or played LSU in the Superdome, Utah at home, Wiscy at home, Boise at home, and Mississippi State, that's 5 P5 (Boise is often counted as a P5) teams.

    Last year we had 7 on that level.

    the year before it was 5.

    I look forward to the 6 games in 2018 that a G5 wouldn't hand us, maybe 3 rather than 6. I look forward to Arizona and Cal and Washington and Wiscy and Utah in November again -
    you guys are beatable in November, maybe that's what we are doing wrong :)

    It's cool seeing Michigan State and Missouri and big teams coming to Provo.

    as a fan, that's what I'm looking forward to. It would be great to be in the PAC and get some of them each year, we don't have that luxury, for me this is the closest thing to being a P5 member.

    So would I trade the upcoming seasons for a chance at a better bowl game? I personally wouldn't as a fan (although clearly once we drop a few games many would) and football is about money and we're way better off as we currently are.

  • london_josh lincoln, CA
    Sept. 11, 2017 6:35 p.m.

    stumper,

    I'm not offended by your opinion.

    BYU has a current series with Boise, it's not been 5 years since we beat them, it's as I stated, BYU wins in Provo and Boise wins in Boise, we've played only 7 times in history with the first coming in the crowton years and have split the current 5 game series based on location, last year was a close loss in boise.

    BYU has lost a total of 5 games to Boise and we've got a 5 game series, honest mistakes, but the fact is that like the BSU game has been very competitive over the years.

    I agree that independence isn't a great place to be, there is logic to an eastern conference but is the money actually better there? Travel would be a nightmare from Provo.

    The problem is that so far BYU remains stuck in no-mans land - better money and options than the MWC and not nearly as good as a P5 with a growing gap - at least BYU is in the middle, I don't think it's great for BYU but I still think it's better than any G5 option out there. Would be a really hard fit for an eastern G5 because of all the sports that lose money needing to go back and forth for travel, I don't see it as better.

  • idablu Idaho Falls, ID
    Sept. 11, 2017 6:14 p.m.

    To those who advocate BYU discarding independence and seeking refuge with a lesser conference, MWC, Big Sky, MAC, Sun Belt, etc. don't seem to have a grasp of college football landscape.
    Like it or not, the reality is, IT's ALL ABOUT MONEY. If BYU wants to maintain it's other sports, they must maximize their income through football. Right now, independence is the best option for maintaining the level of income that can sustain the other sports and can actually spill over to other non-sports programs.
    Having a son who is a student athlete on one of those other sports, I am extremely grateful BYU greatly increased their revenue by partnering with ESPN and embarking on independence. It gave BYU more money and more exposure than they had ever imagined. It has been a very, very good gig for BYU, and to throw all that away for substantially less revenue for a non-P5 conference would just plain be fiscally irresponsible.

  • Horrible Stumper Hyrum, UT
    Sept. 11, 2017 5:40 p.m.

    Oh London-Josh, You are one of those BYU fans that continues to think the past is the present. In past years they have done this, in past years they have done that. It is 2017, yes in the past the Cougars did well against those teams. But it is the present, what has it been 5 games since they beat Boise. Sorry sir, but the Cougs are proving independence is unsustainable and the continue to lose ground due to independence. I said nothing about them joining the MWC, I think that they need to go to a different conference to get back their ability to improve. Just saying that they should look eastward for a conference. Didn't mean to offend.

  • SoonerUte Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 11, 2017 5:16 p.m.

    london_josh "The odds of a playoff game are the same with or without the MWC"
    For the playoffs, perhaps. With the MWC, BYU has a better chance of reaching a NY6 Bowl Game - an accomplishment of 50+ division one schools, but not BYU.

    "Move forward, not backwards."
    Move forward to what? What do you envision for the future Cougars?

    ESPN has an article about how conference realignment has knocked Notre Dame off of its pedestal. They are the bellwether independent program. If they are struggling in independence, what hope has BYU?

  • vasislos Holbrook, AZ
    Sept. 11, 2017 3:51 p.m.

    My thoughts:
    Win or lose, even lose all of them, and I am still a Cougar fan at all times and in all sports. And I am ALWAYS optimistic about the future. There are always possibilities.
    Playing below expectations, yes, but why are so many already writing the eulogy? Maybe it does take 4 - 5 years to really create a new team.
    Under the "what have you done for us lately" category: BYU has been successful for a LONG time against all levels of competition. How many losing seasons in the last nearly 40 years? Two? How many seasons without a bowl game in the last 20? What team has not had some difficult seasons? Like them, BYU will be back. We honor Lavell now but the discontented crowd kept saying he didn't have it anymore. A factor in Norm Chow leaving and perhaps in Lavell's decision to retire when he did.
    Regardless of what happens the rest of the year, BYU will not be in a bowl game unless they improve their BORING game play.
    If BYU weathers the storm and finishes the season strong, even though it will be against weak opponents, I see the real potential for vast improvement over the spring and summer. Three years to fully place the Sitake brand on the Cougars? Sounds reasonable.

  • burningblue Provo, UT
    Sept. 11, 2017 3:35 p.m.

    @Sanefan

    I watched Sitake's interview today and he did not seem like Mr. Nice Guy. He's taking the high road, talking things that can be fixed on each of the three phases, but he specifically pointed out the offenses struggles. He said that the Y needs to make some changes in their scheme to maximize their player's strengths. I expect to see Tanner in the gun more often this week.

    The Y isn't going to beat the badgers. Won't happen. This week I'm just looking for them to make progress. It doesn't mean that anyone is going to get fired if they don't. What it does mean is that Sitake is going to expect them to run the offense in a way that caters to their players strength instead of forcing a scheme on their players that they aren't comfortable executing.

  • london_josh lincoln, CA
    Sept. 11, 2017 3:16 p.m.

    About the MWC:

    "Boise State, Colorado State, Utah State, and Wyoming would all be too much for the Cougs to handle, as we will see in a couple of weeks."

    Bad years aside - we have huge winning percentages over all of those teams except for BSU in which we are equal (they win in Boise, we win in Provo). CSU occasionally made it a game but generally lost. USU recently broke the streak of losing 10 before they win 1, they broke it by a game and haven't won since, and Wyoming was good last year but BYU trounced them year after year.

    Go to winsepedia and look at BYU against those teams, we dominated them, we might be having a bad year but you don't make decisions bade on a bad year and remember that BYU beat Wyoming in December making it 8 straight with 3 huge blowouts in the last 5 games.

    CSU has lost 7 straight, like Wyoming the last win was against a crowton BYU team in 2003.

    "Plus most of the universities would have to pull the knife out of their back that BYU stuck there when BYU left."

    The knife was financial!

    Utah and TCU and BYU turned the MWC into a big boy conference, when we all left it was attention and finances that they lacked - they'd like the BYU attention back!

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    Sept. 11, 2017 3:04 p.m.

    Sitaki has to change up his offense. Detmer has to realize he doesn't have the horses to play pro-style offense this year and the only way to win any games is to let his QB throw the ball down field like he did his freshman year. That means shotgun. That means using 2 tight ends. BYU has zero running game this year also which is bad but you play with what you have. After two weeks and 13 points I would think it would be obvious this is a year to throw the play book away and open things up. It can't get any worse..what do you have to lose? Try no huddle as well. I watched John Elway one year take his team to the Superbowl with no running game and two good tight ends --- it can be done.

  • Horrible Stumper Hyrum, UT
    Sept. 11, 2017 2:46 p.m.

    I agree with most of the posters who say that the Cougs should not join the Mt West. However, since independence is proving to be unsustainable I think they should seek membership with the AAC, the MAC or maybe the Sun Belt conference. I think those conferences playing style is a better fit for the Cougs. The Mountain Division of the Mt West would be too competitive for the Cougars, so they really need to look farther east. Boise State, Colorado State, Utah State, and Wyoming would all be too much for the Cougs to handle, as we will see in a couple of weeks. Plus most of the universities would have to pull the knife out of their back that BYU stuck there when BYU left. So go east Cougars, go East.

  • Captain L Provo, UT
    Sept. 11, 2017 2:19 p.m.

    I would agree about receivers regarding last years group but I see much better receivers this year. Shumway has been good, he goes and gets the ball, tall, strong, athletic, Tanner has made bad throws towards him several times. Simon has been OK, he needs more opportunities, Hifo has been frustrating, drops, bad decisions, he needs to earn playing time, he has hurt us. Beau Tanner needs to fight for the ball, he plays soft. Neil Pau has potential but needs to concentrate and focus better. Triniman needs more touches. Bushman has been great and needs more touches. All of these receivers / TE are good athletes, fast, being athletic doesn't necessarily make you a good receiver, good hands, strong tough, running good routes, good decisions are necessary above being a good athlete. Triniman, Tanner & Simon run under 4.4 40's , they are fast , quick, strong but that is not all that is needed. Shumway and Neil may not run under 4.4 but they aren't slow, they are big and fast and make for good targets. Mangum making poor throws has been more of a problem for me than the receivers not being athletic enough.

  • Captain L Provo, UT
    Sept. 11, 2017 2:01 p.m.

    I have watched and rooted for the Cougars all my life (67yrs) & I've never been more frustrated. I tweeted Steve Young last week, I don't know who to blame more Ty or Tanner and he tweeted back Ty. I believe that but I also think Tanner is stinking it up, making bad throws, bad decisions and not looking like the leader this team needs. I don't think they will give Beau a chance but they should, Tanner just isn't cutting it.
    The comments saying we don't have the athletes we need are not true, we have excellent, top notch athletes we have at least 5 if not more wide receivers & DB's that run under 4.4, that's great and not a lot of teams would have more. We have big , strong, tough lineman, good athletic LB's, athletic fast DB's. We have fast athletic wide receivers, RB's are questionable but maybe Ula can step up, hope they give him the Playing time. It isn't that they're not athletic, it's they're not executing. To me that's coaching.

  • london_josh lincoln, CA
    Sept. 11, 2017 1:48 p.m.

    "Independence is a dead end street and the Y is quickly getting close to the end... It is time to go back and beg the MWC for forgiveness ... if that does not work then hit up the Big Sky Conference ..."

    Let's not amputate our leg over a bruise.

    Independence is better than the MWC, as an indy team we complain about the MWC teams that we need to play.

    That being said, the only problem that the MWC would have with us is that we still have a huge winning record against those teams - but this is a business and money would dictate the move and BYU is way bigger money than anybody else there.

    so the HC from SDSU might have a thing or two to say about it, but the AD will listen to the accounting department and BYU would be in withing hours.

    But what do we gain? The odds of a playoff game are the same with or without the MWC - we'd have to be perfect, and then beyond that we're on a lesser schedule competing for a trophy that we've won so many times that the stadium is shaded by the flags.

    The WAC and then the MWC title came down to BYU and Utah almost each year - do we forget why that game matters so much?

    Move forward, not backwards.

  • Jello is Good ,
    Sept. 11, 2017 1:33 p.m.

    @a_voice_of_reason

    "Time for a change. Mangum is at best an average G5 QB"

    "Really? First, may I point out that I think the fault lies with the receivers more than the QB or the O-line - nobody can get open...and then even when they do they drop too many balls.

    Second, what change are you looking for? .... Last season it was all about getting Mangum in instead of Hill and suddenly we'd have a top 5 offense instead of struggling to score. Well, did that work? "

    You have confused me with others. I NEVER thought Mangum was as good as the hype. I ALWAYS wanted Hill over him. I ALWAYS have stated that he was average against G5 and downright poor against P5. 40 QBR against P5's in 2015 and 2017. Hill was 68 QBR against 6 P5's in 2016.

    And if it was just the line and receivers, how come he was just as bad against P5's in 2015? And unbelievably he has gotten worse.

    A new QB will not "save" the season. But I believe in playing the best player and trying to win every game. It's hard to do worse than Mangum has done. Let's at least see what the others can do.

    Mangum is deer in the headlights, frozen until another free safety blitzes and crushes him from the blind side.

  • Big J Bountiful, UT
    Sept. 11, 2017 1:13 p.m.

    @BYUalum - South Jordan, UT

    BYU does not have great players. They have great young men and mostly average players.

  • Big J Bountiful, UT
    Sept. 11, 2017 1:11 p.m.

    One correction: B. Tanner did not drop a pass at the end of the game. The Utah defender actually knocked it out of his arms. Hifo did drop the pass though. Took his eyes off it before he caught it.

  • taylormade1 Springville, UT
    Sept. 11, 2017 1:09 p.m.

    Independence is a dead end street and the Y is quickly getting close to the end... It is time to go back and beg the MWC for forgiveness ... if that does not work then hit up the Big Sky Conference ...

  • london_josh lincoln, CA
    Sept. 11, 2017 12:55 p.m.

    Tanner wasn't left without options to throw to, in a game that we shouldn't have been in our last drive could have won the game, 2nd down got dropped and 3rd down try got dropped - 4th was really good defense but 2nd and 3rd were something that can't happen back to back.

    Tanner doesn't have good WRs - who's fault is that?

    Looks like we finally found some RBs, and the team started to click, sadly this week looks scary, Wiscy is better if not just as good as LSU this year -maybe the goal is not be be shut-out.

    But it's time to start changing some things up. I believe that Tanner is a better QB than Hoge or Detmer - but talent in practice doesn't always equate execution the field, roll your minds back to Jake Heaps, perfect in practice but just didn't get it going on the field. Time to open it up, somebody has to step up!

  • byufootballrocks Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 11, 2017 12:50 p.m.

    @BlueHusky said: "BYU Joe is right about fans not really knowing anything. Football is very complex and technical. The most complex game in the world. We can watch football all our lives and still not understand the deep nuances of football."

    Right. this is deep stuff?

    And @BYU Joe said, responding to "But most coaches do not change easily and they don't listen to fans - they go down with flags in their fists": "Yeah probably best to get your coaching tips from the people on the comment boards. Because they collectively have coached how many college or high school football games?"

    I disagree.

    Football is simple. However it is the most over-thought game out there. I don't need 20 years in coaching to understand what my two eyes can discern in plain sight:

    When BYU went to the shotgun and an uptempo, pass-first, 2-minute offense, they went down the field on Utah almost at will. They also opened up their running game with pass-first.

    Innovative offense plus tough defense (which requires good recruiting but not necessarily the very best talent out there) equals success at BYU.

    It was true in Lavell's time and just as true today.

    And Lavell said he got good ideas from fans.

  • steve24/7 Sandy, UT
    Sept. 11, 2017 12:43 p.m.

    I've had to adjust my expectations a little bit for this season. My new hope for the game against #10 Wisconsin is that we are able to cross the 50 yd line and at least get a field goal so we're not shut out again.

    If the offense keeps playing like it has the Cougars will be lucky to win 4 more games. If that happens I predict Detmer will be replaced and Mangum will not be the starter next year.

  • Juice Box Eureka, UT
    Sept. 11, 2017 12:38 p.m.

    I'm with Jello. Mangum is a G5 QB. Average at best. The receivers are also poor, as well as the O line. The entire offense is just a trainwreck.

    I used to be high on Mangum, but I'm very much off the hype train. BYU needs a replacement, and soon.

  • Pipes Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 11, 2017 12:34 p.m.

    a_voice_of_reason - Woods Cross, UT

    Your argument was the same one that Mendenhall used when talking about Riley Nelson. We all know that his logic was faulty. Nelson cost us more games than he won. I don't remember his back ups. name but he proved to be a better QB. How a player performs in practice does not always reflect how he will preform in a game. Case-in-point, Tanner Mangum.

  • london_josh lincoln, CA
    Sept. 11, 2017 12:31 p.m.

    No fair weather fan here - still cheering for BYU.

    The bad part is our team, but look on the bright side, some of those boring games might actually be edge of your seat entertainment.

    If you are a fan, be a fan!

  • a_voice_of_reason Woods Cross, UT
    Sept. 11, 2017 12:08 p.m.

    @ Jello is good -

    "Time for a change. Mangum is at best an average G5 QB"

    Really? First, may I point out that I think the fault lies with the receivers more than the QB or the O-line - nobody can get open...and then even when they do they drop too many balls.

    Second, what change are you looking for? If Mangum's not good enough what do you propose? It's not like we can trade him for a better player. Our other options are the guys behind Mangum on the depth chart. There was no discussion of a QB competition in camp - why? None of our other QB's are nearly as good as Mangum. As much as I'd love to say that suddenly making a change there would save our season, I doubt that very much. Last season it was all about getting Mangum in instead of Hill and suddenly we'd have a top 5 offense instead of struggling to score. Well, did that work? No. If the problem is Mangum (and I argue it's not), there isn't a better option. Rather we just would need to buckle up and accept a bad season.

  • a_voice_of_reason Woods Cross, UT
    Sept. 11, 2017 12:02 p.m.

    Two important points:

    First, before we all pile on Tanner Mangum, let's point something out - he had nobody to throw to. The receivers were blanketed all night - they can't get open. Every completion was to a player that was being tackled as they caught it. Watch Utah's completions - they always had a cushion. There was finally a cushion (and a string of completions) in the 4th quarter when Utah went to a prevent, zone defense. Of course, two drops in the breadbasket killed the final drive - cushion or no. Tom Brady couldn't have found an open receiver that would have made the catch any more so than Tanner. Even the picks happened because Utah's corners make more aggressive plays on the ball than the receivers

    Second, BYU fans - we need to wake up to some disturbing facts. Utah played terribly. Fumbled snaps, tons of penalties, turnovers...and still won. They won, and the polls punished them for it. It's time to get used to losing any significant games. We just don't have the elevated talent we need in the skill positions - namely receivers, running backs, and secondary. We can't beat Power 5 programs that have them.

  • RememberBYUwinning13of14? Murray, UT
    Sept. 11, 2017 11:40 a.m.

    I guess no going to the NFL this year Tanner? Pathetic offense, pathetic play calling, pathetic everything on offense. Dropped passes, and poor routes. Terrible throws by Tanner. Oh, lest I forget a 25 yd field goal missed? My grandson can make a 25 yarder. Only saving grace from this game is the defense.

  • 65TossPowerTrap Salmon, ID
    Sept. 11, 2017 11:16 a.m.

    " lets see what Detmer can do."

    We've already seen what Detmer can do. He can do nothing. His offense is bland, predictable and does absolutely nothing to put opposing defenses off balance. I'm a Mangum homer, but I actually hope they make a change. One of the two things will happen:
    1) the new QB will play better, the offense will get better and BYU will beat some good teams - a great outcome,
    2) the new QB will play poorly, the offense will continue to struggle and the only person left to blame is Detmer.
    My money is on scenario #2.

  • Jello is Good ,
    Sept. 11, 2017 10:24 a.m.

    @golfwt - Boise, ID
    Sept. 11, 2017 10:09 a.m.

    "Before most of you through Tanner under the bus perhaps you ought to look back at his Freshman record(3000+ passing yrds), just maybe he had an offensive line, just maybe he had great receivers, and just maybe a good running attack."

    For the record, I have been saying Mangum was pedestrian at best for over 2 years. He has played horribly against every P5 he has played. His QBR was 17.9 against Utah, 27.7 against LSU and 19.1 against PSU.

    But before you say that it is just this year, Mangum's average QBR against all 6 P5's he has played is a embarrassing 40.1.

    For contrast, Hill's against the 6 P5's he faced last year was 68. If you take away about 3 Hail Mary prayers, Mangum's QBR would be hovering around 20.

    It's time for a change at QB and then lets see what Detmer can do.

  • Jello is Good ,
    Sept. 11, 2017 10:15 a.m.

    @jawico

    "The front heavy schedule necessitated by Independence is the opposite of majority of P5 schools. The result is less than favorable record early and disappointment of a WAC schedule to bring the record back to respectability and a bowl game. The encouragement leads to unrealistic expectations for the following season which will again start with losses to better competition, and the cycle will repeat until BYU joins a conference. Ironically the same pattern happens at Notre Dame though with better competition and slightly better results.

    Independence is not doing the Cougars any favors."

    I agree with you right up until the talk of conference and independence. We can all agree that a P5 invitation would be great and better.

    However if we were members of the MWC, our schedule would look just like this one. It would be front loaded with 4 games against P5 teams and the back end would be all MWC teams, which it is right now as we finish with 5 of our last 7 against MWC teams.

    And Wyoming placed second in the MWC and who did they play in their bowl? BYU!

    But with independence we get much more money and exposure.

    P5>Indy>MWC

  • golfwt Boise, ID
    Sept. 11, 2017 10:09 a.m.

    Before most of you through Tanner under the bus perhaps you ought to look back at his Freshman record(3000+ passing yrds), just maybe he had an offensive line, just maybe he had great receivers, and just maybe a good running attack. Based on the first several games this is not a good team, severe loses like LSU, Utah(game was really not close), and upcoming Wisconsin will not add much. The major problem as many of you have said is independence which I have maintained for years as the most stupid decision BYU(Holmoe) has made. If a change is not made the program will continue to go downhill.....no team can stand continual one sided defeats...and recruitment will further suffer. Will not make any difference if the entire coaching staff is replaced. Holmoe...for the survival of BYU football start begging the MWC to take us back, at least we can compete with most of the teams in the MWC.

  • Jello is Good ,
    Sept. 11, 2017 10:05 a.m.

    @CougarForever - Holladay, Utah
    Sept. 11, 2017 8:37 a.m.

    "The only other team on the schedule that will give us trouble is Mississippi State. There is no way we lose to Utah State even with the game being in Logan. We will dominate the other teams on the schedule. Worst case scenario is 9-4 and 11-2 is still possible."

    What about Boise State that just took WSU to three OT's or USU in a rivalry game when they just scored 50 points. Didn't we lose to them a couple of years ago when we had a better team?

  • Jello is Good ,
    Sept. 11, 2017 10:02 a.m.

    @Bifftacular - Spanish Fork, Ut
    Sept. 11, 2017 8:30 a.m.

    "I'm a BYU fan for 43 years but the only games I see BYU winning this year are the Idaho St/San Jose St type teams. Yes, their offense is that anemic. Wisconsin is going to roll them, Boise is going to roll them, I could see them losing to Fresno and to Mississippi. I hate to say this but even to a non sophisticated football fan, you could see the talent disparity on the field against Utah. Utah was quicker at pretty much every position. I've been a loyal fan for 43 years but there is something about this year that has dashed my hope for this year and future years. My desire to keep watching is almost dead. Until BYU gets out of Independence, this is our lot."

    -------------------

    Sad to say, but I'm with you for the most part. I will watch as I am mildly interested now, but I have no expectations. I will spend my time following my Ravens and my other Alma mater Maryland.

  • BlueHusky Mission Viejo, CA
    Sept. 11, 2017 10:00 a.m.

    BYU Joe is right about fans not really knowing anything. Football is very complex and technical. The most complex game in the world. We can watch football all our lives and still not understand the deep nuances of football.

    BUT, this team's offense has been terrible from game 1. It is clearly not working. Tanner, who seemed so great two years ago, is a shadow of that now. Is it in his head? Is he hurt? In the last drive, he looked like he got some fire back. Too little too late. How many college teams are running a pro set offense? There is probably a reason for that. Maybe going back to the past is not the way to the future.

    BYU's defense is good, maybe very good. They've held LSU and Utah down enough to beat them if the offense had been as productive as past year's offense or even Tanner's first year.

    Finally, why do people blame everything on independence? I don't see a conference affiliation making much of a difference. Bad teams in conferences stay bad. The traditional power teams stay powerful. How does a conference dominated by USC, Oregon, Stanford, and Washington suddenly make a difference? You will still lose to those guys 9 out 10 times.

  • Kibbles N Vicks SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Sept. 11, 2017 10:00 a.m.

    Watch BYU look much better after these top 25 type teams...then will come the saying from cougar fans that BYU would beat Utah if they played later in the season.

    I wonder if BYU recruiting would be better had it retained Robert Anae, a Polynesian coach. Was Detmer hired by Sitake or Holmoe?

  • Oh Really? HERRIMAN, UT
    Sept. 11, 2017 9:30 a.m.

    BYU lost to two Top 25 teams, and is playing a third next week. This is what life would be like in a P5 conference. However, if BYU were actually IN a P5 conference, they'd be able to land more P5-type athletes. There are lots of kids who would've chosen BYU over Utah the last few years if BYU was in a P5.

    The days of 10 win seasons are over, unless BYU ups it's recruiting (which can't be done outside the P5) or balances its schedule. I'd rather be Boise-ish in a conference (they get great OOC games) than the Vanderbuilt of Independence.

    Independence is unsustainable.

  • jawico Cedar City, UT
    Sept. 11, 2017 9:26 a.m.

    The front heavy schedule necessitated by Independence is the opposite of the vast majority of P5 schools. The result is a less than favorable record early in the season and disappointment of fans who have a WAC schedule to look forward to in order to bring the record back to respectability and a bowl game. The encouragement as the offense starts to look better leads to unrealistic expectations for the following season which will again start with losses to better competition, and the cycle will repeat until BYU joins a conference. Ironically the same pattern happens at Notre Dame though with better competition and slightly better results.

    Independence is not doing the Cougars any favors.

  • Hutchmeister Klamath Falls, OR
    Sept. 11, 2017 9:10 a.m.

    I joined the BYU Cougar Club in 1983 and was an ardent Cougar fan for several years prior to that time. I have been steadfast in my loyalty of, and support for, BYU athletics through the lean years, as well as the myriad conference championships and winning seasons. However, my support and allegiance is grounded in reality and the pragmatism of reasonable expectations. I neither unabashedly drink the blue Kool-Aid, nor do I see the world through the azure tint of blue-colored goggles. I do love my Cougars...but I believe that unless something absolutely remarkable - bordering on the miraculous - occurs to change the fortunes of this team in nearly every aspect, from coaching philosophy and decision making to actual player performance, it will struggle sorely to be simply mediocre for the balance of this season. Average is within reach, but anything beyond that, predicated upon three singularly uninspiring performances is simply whistling in the wind.

  • imsmarterthanyou Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 11, 2017 8:59 a.m.

    I don't understand why BYU gets so much attention. It makes no sense. They have no conference, therefore their season is pointless. They can do nothing for themselves except get a bowl game which are handed out like candy at Halloween. The ONLY thing they can accomplish is to hurt other teams as they try to win their conference.

  • cougarsrock Springville, UT
    Sept. 11, 2017 8:55 a.m.

    There is no way this team as it stands right now is going to win any of the next 4 games .. So excitement and fun needs to be injected into this program... here is a couple of ideas...
    1- since detmer is having such a hard time calling plays lets hold a contest every week where you can put a football play into a drawing and at the end of the week before the game a drawing is held. whatever play is drawn detmer has to call that play during that weeks game ... ( probably will work as well as most plays that he is currently calling). It would be awesome to have a friend call and say " detmer just ran the play that i sent in !
    2-Hold a student kicking tryout each week on campus and the winner gets to be the kicker for the next upcoming game..(i am sure that will work better than what is going on now...)
    Sounds like fun to me !!

  • BYU Joe MISSION VIEJO, CA
    Sept. 11, 2017 8:45 a.m.

    "But most coaches do not change easily and they don't listen to fans - they go down with flags in their fists."

    Yeah probably best to get your coaching tips from the people on the comment boards. Because they collectively have coached how many college or high school football games?

    Zero. (Your time as the assistant running back coach in Pop Warner does not count)

    Trolls think they have all the answers and if the world would just listen to them winning would be easy. Get a little dose of reality please. In the safety of the arm chair and the next day it is easy to coach and criticize.

    Teams win and lose. Players rise and fall. It's why we keep coming back. Winning however does solve it all.

  • CougarForever Holladay, Utah
    Sept. 11, 2017 8:37 a.m.

    Losing to Utah was incredibly painful. However, that said, while I don't expect us to win this Saturday the game will be closer than many expect and beating Wisconsin is not out of the question. They have significant quarterback woes of their own (read the local Wisconsin reporting regarding this -- it makes the criticism some have launched at Mangum seem tame, in one case comparing his throwing to that of a fifth-grader), have a multitude of injuries, did not exactly overwhelm Florida Atlanta (largely being rescued by a breakout performance from a freshman running back who is unlikely to duplicate this feat against our defense), and took a long time to get going against Utah State in their first game. Plus, we play them here at home. I really think that we have a shot. Even members of their own local media think that they are over-rated at this point.

    The only other team on the schedule that will give us trouble is Mississippi State. There is no way we lose to Utah State even with the game being in Logan. We will dominate the other teams on the schedule. Worst case scenario is 9-4 and 11-2 is still possible.

  • Bifftacular Spanish Fork, Ut
    Sept. 11, 2017 8:30 a.m.

    I'm a BYU fan for 43 years but the only games I see BYU winning this year are the Idaho St/San Jose St type teams. Yes, their offense is that anemic. Wisconsin is going to roll them, Boise is going to roll them, I could see them losing to Fresno and to Mississippi. I hate to say this but even to a non sophisticated football fan, you could see the talent disparity on the field against Utah. Utah was quicker at pretty much every position. I've been a loyal fan for 43 years but there is something about this year that has dashed my hope for this year and future years. My desire to keep watching is almost dead. Until BYU gets out of Independence, this is our lot.

  • evansrichdm West Jordan, UT
    Sept. 11, 2017 7:38 a.m.

    To my fellow BYU fan take a chill pill.

    Give it some time for things to improve. If we lost to USU then yes I will enjoy the ranks of bench whoever, but for now we have a team that is playing great teams and being schooled. That is not a bad thing in the long run, these boys will learn to play at that level and I do believe we will have some exciting moments this year. I did see some good things this last game. The D held UofU to one touch down, it could have been 35 to 13 after all was said and done. The O is starting to wake up a bit more, but did make some rookie mistake in the last drive that I hope they will learn from. Ty is also learning and breaking in a new system, but I do agree go with the shot gun for the time being until talent improves, which I do believe it will over time.
    As BYU fans and I would say this of most respectable school if we are not 12-0 at season end we want heads to roll. Sometimes you got accept this is not your year and to learn and move on to improve. GO BYU

  • goosehuntr Tooele, UT
    Sept. 11, 2017 7:37 a.m.

    I am surprised Utah's defense allowed so many points against them from BYU.

    The receiving corp is young and lacks speed and athleticism. Mangum has to have someone to throw to. And Mangum has to make the throws. There are so many moving parts to that offense that the whole unit looks bad when people don't fulfill their assignments. Too much hesitation. To not see corner blitz's is strange at this level... Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. Anyway, the outcome was known before hand. But to see it play out in such mistake ridden football teams, was pathetic. One important note, the UTE quarterback is the real deal. He will make noise in his years there and will put them in position for a championship if the defense can remain strong and athletic.

  • byufootballrocks Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 11, 2017 7:14 a.m.

    Telling on Saturday night that the offense only moved when it went to shotgun and uptempo, and pass first. Then the run opened up! (Wasn't just Tolutau getting in the game.)

    But will we learn anything from it?

    Lavell Edwards had it right: he knew he could build a strong defense with the caliber of athlete BYU could recruit. But offense? It had to be super-innovative.

    Pass opening up the run. And BYU had some great running backs - Lakei Heimuli, Vai Sikahema, still they stuck to pass first.

    It's as true today as it was in the 1970's and 80's.

    You can't successfully run a pro-style offense with the kind of players BYU can likely recruit.

    If Ty would just use the offense that he himself directed in 1990 as the Heisman Trophy winner BYU would prosper.

    But most coaches do not change easily and they don't listen to fans - they go down with flags in their fists.

    I doubt we'll see any innovation in the BYU offense until Coach Detmer has moved on.

    Unless he and Coach Sitake see the light - the thing that is so easy to see for those with eyes to see.

  • Pugman Tremonton, UT
    Sept. 11, 2017 7:06 a.m.

    @John Jackson:

    They have moved Riley Burt to the defensive side of the ball to play corner. As for the team as a whole. When Sitaki took over I felt personally it would take 4 years to get this thing turned around. Bronco had recruited way to small of players for the defensive and offensive lines and Sitaki has addressed that and they will be fine going forward. Now it will be time to work on the offensive side of the ball as far as skilled players go. It's a journey folks and I know it's not what we expected, but there's only so much you can do with the talent you have. One glaring problem is players dropping balls. At this level you can't have that. I don't think we have tough enough wide outs, and the dropped balls are an indication these guys are afraid to take a hit.

  • Jello is Good ,
    Sept. 11, 2017 7:05 a.m.

    @BC-Cali21 - Rancho Cucamonga, CA
    Sept. 10, 2017 6:43 p.m.

    @sanefan...Dude, relax! Everything this year is new. The offense is new, the starting role for Tanner is new, and there's a lot of new faces on the offense."

    Actually I agree for the most part with Sanefan and you are completely misguided. Everything is NOT new this year, this is Detmer's second year. He has had 2 complete off seasons to bring everybody up to speed. The starting role for Tanner is not new. This is his 15th start.

    Mangum's QBR against P5's he has started for his career:

    UCLA 60.4
    Michigan 28.5
    Missouri 68
    Utah 38.1
    LSU 27.7
    Utah 17.9

    For an average of 40.1.

    In contrast Hill against 6 P5's last year had an average ranking of 68 in a down year coming back from a debilitating injury with a completely new offense.

    Time for a change. Mangum is at best an average G5 QB.

  • Procoug Layton, UT
    Sept. 11, 2017 6:49 a.m.

    This back to the future offense is going to take some time to get rolling. It will be great but it will take some time for recievers to learn to gain separation and once they do not get so excited that they drop the pass. Mangum passes were, for the most part, thrown on time and to the right spots. The recievers and QB seem to be on the same page now as far a reads go. This will only get better folks. I am excited about where the programs is going. Within a year or so, we will be back to beating Utah on a regular basis..... of course Kyle might retire before then.

  • Jello is Good ,
    Sept. 11, 2017 6:45 a.m.

    @Silver Stingray - St George, UT
    Sept. 10, 2017 5:10 p.m.

    "Let's face it. BYU faces another challenge just showing up. Pathetic."

    Here's a question. Why? It's not clever and you say you don't care...so why?

  • pablo Orem, UT
    Sept. 11, 2017 6:34 a.m.

    I believe one of the problems is stress on the Quarterback. I speak from experience. There is very little stress on a person in practice. The problem is in a real game situation. It is just the facts of life. Some of us do not perform well under stress. Stress can cause disability in a person just like taking drugs can impair one's ability. I know. I have experienced it.

  • blue & white Boise, ID
    Sept. 11, 2017 6:06 a.m.

    We have to have patience. Its so easy to second guess. Stay positive team it will improve. Sitaki will bring in great recruits and the team will be better. If every player on the team did what the coaches asked we would have beaten Utah.

  • The Deuce Livermore, CA
    Sept. 10, 2017 11:37 p.m.

    The game against Utah proved 2 things that need to be adjusted immediately. BYU needs a new Offensive Coordinator and its time to change quarterbacks. Everyone in the stadium could see who Mangum was going to throw to. This falls on both Detmer and Mangum. This offense does not work for the players BYU has at this time. There is a complete lack of a running game. This next week is going to be even worse for BYU. This program has been going south for too long. When will the AD wake up and start to make the key changes.

  • Oh Really? HERRIMAN, UT
    Sept. 10, 2017 11:04 p.m.

    "We fought. We played the best we could,”

    I sure hope not. Lipstick on a pig.

  • Deanvrtc Vancouver, WA
    Sept. 10, 2017 11:03 p.m.

    I wonder how long Sitake can wait for Detmer to produce? His offense last year was limited to NFL bound Swag daddy and Taysom. BYU does not have the speed or talent to run a pro-set against superior speed and P5 recruits. Thats why Medenhall agreed to the shot-gun and go-hard/ go fast approach. It negates some of BYUs lack of talant/speed at each position. Magnum is horrible under center and Detmer does not want to admit it... and adjust. Next up Hoge must be worse???.... or we would have seen him by now. BYUs football program is more than at a crossroads, and Sitake needs to act. He can't wait and hope, or it may cross over to never-never land and lost in the wilderness of mediocrity like BYU basketball. Head coaches have to let go of players and coaches that don't produce..right now thats obviously Detmer and Magnum. They both need to be benched.

  • 72coug12 casper, WY
    Sept. 10, 2017 10:24 p.m.

    Tanner Mangum has a Total QBR of 20.2. The Total QBR is a rating based on a valuation for every type of play AND weighted for the quality of the defenses played against. That rating is good enough for 123rd out of the 134 FBS schools rated. The top rated QBs are in the 90s. For comparison Utah's QB is 42nd with a rating of 66.7, which although not stellar is certainly acceptable. Mangum's rating for the LSU game was a whopping 13.7. Although some of the blame for his abysmal showing lies with his offensive line, this rating shows that he is one of the worst QBs in the NCAA. And you know it isn't going to get any better against Wisconsin or Boise State. He seems like a nice kid but this just doesn't cut it.
    Let him start. But give some game reps to the other guys. They can't do worse and maybe the competition for game time will help the kid. But probably not.

  • LoveTheKittens Central, UT
    Sept. 10, 2017 9:58 p.m.

    I am afraid we are going to be 2-5 at the start of the 'managable part of the schedule', you know the part that will leave us with Remaining SOS = 130.

  • CV Storm Hyrum, UT
    Sept. 10, 2017 9:22 p.m.

    The Cougs are failing on so many levels it is going to be hard to right the ship. The offense is obviously not working, it's seems the parts just don't fit together. If Mangum isn't throwing balls into the turf, the wide receivers are dropping very catchable balls, or the offensive line can't protect the quarterback or open a hole for the running backs. The team is way out of kilter, and I don't believe Wisconsin is going to try and and give the game away. A 1-3 start is pretty well written in stone, and a 1-4 start is a good possibility.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    Sept. 10, 2017 8:44 p.m.

    I wish BYU all the luck in the world going forward. However this will probably be a tougher game in Utah. Wisconsin won't make the mistakes and step all over themselves like Utah did? Good luck the rest of the way

  • John Jackson Sandy, UT
    Sept. 10, 2017 8:40 p.m.

    Confidence? One wonders but what it isn't an issue on offense. During the off-season, Tanner said he was having mental health issues. How long has that been going on? Before he came to BYU? Before the coaching change?

  • cougarsrock Springville, UT
    Sept. 10, 2017 8:31 p.m.

    Everyone just needs to have a little more patience with Mangum... Just 4 more losses in a row and then he will be able to play against teams that are more in tune with his talent level ....

  • eagle Provo, UT
    Sept. 10, 2017 8:27 p.m.

    I actually figured BYU would be 1-3, maybe 2-2 after its fourth game. But to get to say 9-4 or 8-5 BYU needs to get in gear, especially the offense. As far as benching Mangum, I think the fans need to get real. Hoge and Detmer are nowhere near his level and the problem lies more with the overrated OL line, no running game and WR's that aren't that athletic. IMO, though he hasn't played well, he's the best part of the offense by far, he and the TE Bushman.

  • John Jackson Sandy, UT
    Sept. 10, 2017 8:25 p.m.

    Ula Tolutau. I'd give him a little more of a look after his three carries brought the Cougs a short-fielded touchdown. Squally Canada only carried the ball once? Riley Burt no touches at all? I confess I don't keep that abreast to know but what he was injured. Nor do I listen to sports radio to know if explanations have been given for why Canada and Burt weren't used more. Would have liked to have seen an answer in my morning paper.

  • cjd1 Draper, UT
    Sept. 10, 2017 8:12 p.m.

    Sorry Sitake you are playing your forth game and what you see is what you get.

  • JohnInSLC Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Sept. 10, 2017 7:31 p.m.

    Coog fans - Playing a P5 heavy schedule, even for just a couple of weeks, isn't as easy as it looks, is it?

  • BYUalum South Jordan, UT
    Sept. 10, 2017 6:57 p.m.

    It'll be another tough opponent, however, we'll keep cheering our team on.

    Hopefully, Ty Detmer and Tanner Magnum can get on the same page and make some great plays. That alone would build team confidence. Where is the Tanner Magnum of old with that "fire in the belly?" We've got great players! Sitake, get tough with these guys. We want a win!

    Go Cougars!

  • BC-Cali21 Rancho Cucamonga, CA
    Sept. 10, 2017 6:43 p.m.

    @sanefan...Dude, relax! Everything this year is new. The offense is new, the starting role for Tanner is new, and there's a lot of new faces on the offense. Yes, it's frustrating to watch but a new offense takes time and it takes time for new guys to really adjust to playing against some of the best teams in FBS. With time they will have the game slow down for them mentally so they can compete with confidence. For now, I'm lead to believe what I've doubted all my life--that SEC and PAC 12 football literally is a league up from what BYU is used to, and we see Utah has already made that transition to being able to play at their conference's higher level, but with time, BYU, Sitaki, Detmer and Tanner will make the adjustments and the progress/improvement to win a lot of games shortly in spite of who they may play. There is no need to fire anyone, no need to put in another QB, and no need to hit the panic button. Give this transition some more time...especially with such a hard preloaded schedule.

  • Sanefan Wellsville, UT
    Sept. 10, 2017 6:13 p.m.

    Sitaki is going to have to show some leadership and take control of this team. No more Mr. Nice Guy. Detmer needs to be told to make the O work or he's out of a job and Tanner needs to be benched in favor of someone else. It's that simple folks. Tanners problem, he is a myopic QB who can't read the D and stays focused on his first option. A QB who doesn't have his "arm" but can read the D, move through his sequence of options, avoid the rush, scramble for a few yards from time to time would be a huge improvement. I think Tanner has lost his confidence and consequently his ability tone a leader.

  • Silver Stingray St George, UT
    Sept. 10, 2017 5:10 p.m.

    Let's face it. BYU faces another challenge just showing up. Pathetic.