@Furry1993 - Ogden, UTFurry1993 asks "BUT who do you call when
it is the police officer breaking the law"Answer: I'd call
the people I trust Furry, the police.
Utah's “implied consent” to draw blood law was struck down by
the Utah Supreme Court over 10 years ago in State v. Rodriguez.No
warrant then no blood draw. Former police officer Payne should have known
@Flying Finn - Oct. 13, 2017 5:58 a.m.Re: lrbinfrisco - Frisco, TXPeople that respect and obey our laws consider the police to be our
friends. Who do you call when your life or the life of a loved one is being
threatened? Do you call the police or a criminal to save your bacon?------------------BUT who do you call when it is the police officer
breaking the law-- like the way Payne assaulted Nurse Wubbels? How do you
protect yourself against "bad action" by the police?
Re: lrbinfrisco - Frisco, TXIrbinfrisco asks 'Who do you call when
you are being illegally attacked by a police officer?"People
that respect and obey our laws consider the police to be our friends. Who do
you call when your life or the life of a loved one is being threatened? Do you
call the police or a criminal to save your bacon?
Who do you call when you are being illegally attacked by a police officer? If
more police arrive they are most likely to act like the U of U police and not
lift a finger to the victim who had been repeatedly and illegally threatened for
over a half hour I believe. It's great that Payne was fired.
Tracy should be fired as well. And the officer in charge of the internal
affairs investigation that did not push for immediate suspension with pay of
Payne and Tracy should be fired or the higher up who quashed his request should
be fired.Brown should be put on probation as well as many other
ranking police. They need to clean up the department or seek employment
elsewhere.This is one incident. However it is indicative of a much
larger problem in police agencies across America. Who polices the police?
Whoever it is, has some major improvement that they need to do. Specifically,
police need to be trained to remove a rogue officer from a scene before it
escalates. This could have easily been done in this case. Law Enforcement can
no longer maintain a near de facto immunity to the law. And they should not
enjoy special privileges over ordinary citizens.
I was happy to see that there was a fairly quick finality to the extremely
unfortunate incident. Thankfully there was no permanent damage to the nurse. The
Policeman was dealt with fairly and hopefully, the police department will
instruct their officers on the law. It is unfortunate that this situation had to
even occur in the first place.
So, to add a conclusion to my prior post: I hope Payne's attorney will
employ the line of defense based on Gardiner (and its rotten progeny). It will
allow him to successfully defend his client against any criminal charges,
because according to the logic fabricated by the activist Utah Supreme Court
detective Payne DID have a probable cause to arrest Mrs. Wubbels! With all respect to Mrs. Wubbels, this is a much larger problem - our courts
have declared that "the King can do no wrong" and placed police officers
above the law. The Utah Legislature needs to step in.
Flying Finn: "You are required to comply with the LAWFUL commands of a
police officer. Learn the law"You will be surprised, but this is
NOT true in Utah! Yes, the statute says so. But the statute is dead - the Utah
Supreme Court, in State v. Gardiner, has re-written it. You are expected to
comply with EVERY, even clearly unlawful command given by a police officer, as
long as the officer is acting "within the scope of his authority". And
to determine that he is "acting within the scope of his authority" it is
enough to determine that there are "indicia of authority". Don't
ask me about this convoluted logic. Ask the activist justices.Moderator, the following example may seem "insensitive", but please
note that this is a genuine example used in the Indiana legislature on the
occasion of discussing the right to resist. According to activist judges and
their "modern jurisprudence" (the Indiana Supreme Court had produced an
outrage similar to Gardiner), an officer can sexually assault your wife in front
of you (the example of deputy Womack is relevant here), and you have NO RIGHT TO
RESIST, and can be arrested even for verbally protesting (Am. Fork City v. Pena
WOW - interesting comments. I was able to read the termination letter on my
cell phone. It was very detailed.Technicality, the Logan Police
Department really didn't care about the blood draw, which was omitted from
the original discussion and police report. (Filing a false police report and
the Lt approved it).The nurse acted within the Hospital department rules
and regulations. She provided the officer the written documentation reaffirming
the agreement. The officer refused to talk to the administration and lost his
temper. (Conduct unbecoming) Citing criminal investigation, though the patient
was not considered under investigation by the Logan Police.Arresting the
nurse and placing her in the car (technically false arrest and false
imprisonment).To make matters worse, the COVER UP! That was not even
mentioned. Why did the police chief allow this? He should also loose his job
for covering up the problems.No matter what, the officer will NEVER be
trusted by the people of SLC, with 27 years he can retire. The Lt. demotion,
has a chance to redeem himself over the next several years.Fighting the
recommendation - will only show SLC you ARE GUILTY!
What about the University of Utah police? In the video it looked like they were
uninvolved and looking at their phones at who knows what. What was their
responsibility? It seems to me they should have been a liaison between the
hospital and police. Where was their supervisor? Or someone from hospital
police department doing something other than leaning against a wall.
Anyone with any awareness of the law could have determined in real time that the
officer was wrong. There is agreement on the left and on the right. While I
feel bad for the outcome to the officer, he should have know better. Now
let's deal with the officer who shot the bicyclist.
This incident underscores a common depiction some police being “bullies
with badges.” I doubt this was isolated; merely previously undetected.
Without the body-cam policy, the story would NEVER have come to the
public’s attention.The story is being portrayed as an instance
of poor judgment; that’s sugar-coating. This was abuse of police
power—“teaching” this nurse a “lesson” for
non-acquiesces. It was also lousy police work; such illegally obtained evidence
would have never been admissible. The saddest part: there are so
MANY excellent police officers serving the people of Utah; all of them are now
splashed with the mud from the shocking disregard of police policy, criminal
procedure, and common decency.As there was no valid basis for
arrest, the officer is guilty of statutory assault, battery, & false
imprisonment. Sovereign immunity means the police are criminally unaccountable.
They & the city are not exempt from civil liability. The abject waste in
city budget for the investigation, lawyers, & eventual settlement, more than
justifies firing everyone involved—including the other law enforcement
officers that stood by and did nothing.
From Wubbels original comments, I don't think she sought punitive action
(suing the city or firing people). She wanted changes so that the situation
wouldn't happen again. It does no good to fire an officer, if the
replacement officer also misunderstands the law.
Management has displayed sound judgement here, this may cause a much needed
shakeup within police ran and file. It is refreshing to see we the people win
for a change. The police are becoming more militarized across the USA it is sad
to watch, "serve and protect" instead of trying to become your own
personal TV hero.
@UtahBlueDevil - Durham, NCYou are required to comply with the LAWFUL
commands of a police officer. Learn the law UtahBlueDevil.The fact
that this officer knew that he'd screwed up is evidenced by the fact that
she was released from the police car and not taken to jail. He got just exactly
what he deserved.
To my mind, the information about the Logan Police Department's lack of
concern about the blood draw, and Payne's decision not to share that
information with his boss from the outset, makes this case much worse for
Detective Payne. Coupled with the threat to take second job retaliatory action
against the hospital, it would seem that Payne was not temperamentally well
suited to remain a police officer. But we should be cautious about
judging him too harshly. We all have bad days and good days. Policing is hard
work: dangerous, poorly compensated, often thankless and emotionally draining.
Let's remember that he may also have saved more than a few lives during his
long career, and may be a better person than this one bad day would suggest.
UtahBlueDevil - "The nurse was refusing to comply with a police order. The
man was refusing to comply with a police order. Learn the law."I
hope you agree that police cannot order you to murder someone. They cannot
order you to break the law. Taking this blood sample was against the law
(despite the officer believing the opposite). The officer could not order the
nurse to break the law. The nurse complied with the law.
@ imsmarterthanyouGeeze should we draw and quarter him also? I think
your plan just a bit harsh. Yes he behaved in an unprofessional manner, but if
Tracy was demoted two ranks why not Payne? I think being demoted down to police
Officer I should be plenty. Or a month's suspension. Does one mistake
(although a biggie) should negate the 27 years of good service? I think being
fired is a bit harsh, and Brown is just acting on Public Out cry from most
people I might add have no clue what it is like to be a police officer. Calm
I disagree with this statement: " Salt Lake Police Chief Mike Brown fired
detective Jeff Payne on Tuesday and demoted Lt. James Tracy for their
involvement in the controversial arrest of University Hospital nurse Alex
Wubbels." There was nothing controversial about the arrest.
Where is the controversy? It was flat out wrong and horrible by any
standards.My father, the most law abiding man you may ever meet, was
wrongly arrested and treated shamefully. It is no small thing when you are
treated they way he was, the way nurse Wubbles was.
@utahcoyote - Oct. 10, 2017 5:22 p.m.. . .all that said, it
seems something like 30 days without pay and mandatory training should have been
enough punishment for a man who had apparently served the police department well
for many years. ---------------------------I disagree.
The nurse was assaulted by Payne when she was obeying the law and acting in
compliance with an agreement previously reached with the police department.
Payne, apparently in a juvenile snit at being thwaeted, threw a temper tantrum
and attempted to harass/bully the nurse. He ended up assaulting her. That does
not, in any way, serve the police department well. That puts the police
department in disrepute, and makes it such that the public cannot trust the
police department to act fairly and lawfully, as long as the offender(s) are in
its employ. The proper punishment for both Payne and Tracy, and the way to
protect the public's safety, is for them to lose their jobs, be barred from
any law enforcement or protective position in the future (including something
like a security guard), and be prosecuted. They proved themselves not worthy of
the public trust, and should be sanctioned accordingly.
Two questions; (1) In the dismissal letter, there is much verbiage about
unprofessional conduct, etc. , but, I read nothing about any law being broken by
Payne or Tracy. Is this because the investigation has not got to that point ?
(2) Why was Tracy's punishment so much less than Payne ? ( no pun intended)
True, he was not shown exhibiting overbearing behavior, but, he was in a
position to make a more rational decision, and should have as a supervisor
exercised better judgment and knowledge of the law as well as any policy
agreement with the University hospital. His apparently cold-blooded decision to
tell Payne to make the arrest is scary. Again, is this because the investigation
is not yet finished ? Or is it finished ? I confess: more than two questions.
One thing I find most troubling is that Officer Payne truly believes to this day
that he had probable cause to arrest the nurse. For that alone, he should be
fired, as should the Lieutenant who gave the arrest order. Officer Payne was
told to make the arrest and he was following orders. So it doesn't
completely add up. I'm going to guess that it was the violence of Officer
Payne which he employed to take down this 'dangerous' (tongue in
cheek) nurse. The violence and brutality should make us shudder. The shoving;
the twisting of her arm; the forcing into an uncomfortable position while shoved
to force walking was brutal. And this is a nurse who was calm, respectful,
dutiful, knowledgeable, respectful, and honorable. We should all be glad that
she didn't have a prior arrest record. Her backing away from Officer Payne
may have ended even worse for her.I appreciate that this matter was
given due course and that the officers had the chance to respond to the findings
of the report. But the Chief delayed his actions for a month and that is also
troubling. I hope Nurse Wubbells is recovering well from her trauma. Thanks
for doing a great job.
"To compare Nurse Wubbels to an armed, convicted felon (aggravated assault)
who flees from police at night on the street and then attempts to assault them
with a knife is beyond laughable"Someones past crime does not
mean an officer can used deadly force indiscriminately. Where in the word did
you get that. And unless this dude was a freak of nature - there is no way he
was threatening the officer while running away. Watch the video amigo. The
officer made a bad decision when to use "deadly" force, where his
partner did not.The nurse was refusing to comply with a police
order. The man was refusing to comply with a police order. Learn the law.
Somebody in Cache County wanted that blood sample, and I'm betting that
they knew that they had no legal grounds to get it. Tracy's disclaimers
aside, it's hard to believe that he thought he had legal grounds.
It's also stretching credibility to think that Payne, a trained
phlebotomist, didn't know that he was bluffing when he claimed that he had
the right to it. How many times has this sort of thing happened
before--not just regarding blood samples, but other things, involving searches,
detaining, whatever--where the victims didn't realize that the cops had no
right to do what they were doing? Payne told the nurse that he was
going to return with that blood or a body in tow--i.e. hers. Those were
Tracy's orders--and Tracy never denied that. Why on earth does he get off
with only 30 days without pay?Someone with integrity would have told
Cache County that they weren't going to get involved in what was clearly an
illegal request. But the good folk up in Logan never get mentioned in these
articles. Why not?
It's too bad it took an obvious negative public reaction to get the needed
consequences handed out. If the chief of police, city and police union had done
the right thing immediately, without Alex Wubbels needing to release the video,
the SLPD could have saved itself a black-eye and such a loss of public trust.
To Egyptian orgins:Nice try. We need the police. We just need them
to be reasonable. Drivers on I-15 already behave very badly, even with the
threat of a ticket. I can't imagine how many ways people would use their
so-called "constitutional rights" if we did not have a reasonable check
and balance on the poor choices that people make when using their God-given
freedoms.btw - The Constitution said little about local police
forces because it was a national document that left unstated responsibilities to
the states. Constables and local authorities were in place long before the
constitution, and there was no intention to change that. The only intent was to
outline reasonable principles that would check the power of the national
government, and the power that was retained (not delegated!) to the states.
@utahcoyote writes,"something like 30 days without pay and
mandatory training should have been enough punishment for a man who had
apparently served the police department well for many years. "So, because Mr. Tracy worked there for years without doing stuff so bad that
it made international news...we should just give him a pass? He deserves
another chance? Really?There was another incident last week where
somebody got to the age of 64 without ever doing anything so serious that it got
the attention of the press. Maybe we should have just disciplined him with 30
days of home detention and some retraining? Because, hey, it was his first
offense.I'm talking about Stephen Paddock.
The sad thing about all of this is that the officer would not have been
disciplined had the Nurse not released the body cam footage. Sadly there have
been many cases where officers crossed the line of professionalism and acted in
a similar manner. It is very hard to take legal action against and officer and
even in this case where it was clear that the officer went way out of bounds the
only discipline enacted was to remove him from the blood draw team. Being a cop is tough and they get treated poorly a lot of the time by the
people they interact with. I can understand why they are on edge but too many
police officers know that they can get away with what would be crimes for other
Ok firing payne is as it should be, but it isn't enough. He should be
prosecuted and then jailed & forced to pay a huge fine, probably be on
parole or probation for several years as well. But the other cop is still a cop
and that is indeed troubling. And what about the cops from the university who
did nothing to protect Miss Wubbles? They should be fired also.
As a former police officer, I've seen officers fired for far less than
this. There is no question that Payne needed to go. Brown should have told him
to retire or get fired and given him the choice. Then the PD would go to POST
and outline the issues to the POST Council and get his police officer
certification pulled also. Payne will be lucky not to have criminal charges
filed against him.As far as the LT, demotion was definitely deserved
in his case. Skordas and Brass need to cut bait and run.
I believe this is the least the police could do. The actions of both these men
in the false arrest of the nurse, has now subjected the police department, and
ultimately the taxpayers to what well could be a very expensive lawsuit. Other
officers in false arrest cases have lost lawsuits in the millions of dollars.
This is totally unacceptable.. It is sad they are able to appeal, which will
also cost the city more money. Hopefully the remaining officers have learned
this type of abuse is not acceptable.
Theatrics. One officer has to do the safety retirement thing with only
(?) 27 years credit. Maybe even more, depending on how the union contract
addresses the investigation, hearing, and appeals time. I suspect 80+% of the
local citizenry would be tickled to have the lifelong income he has coming. The second officer demoted because he trusted an underling's
experience without question. A minor setback, considering the aging LEOs (ie
heading out the door for retirement) and the growing population. There will be
plenty of promotion opportunities available.
If I were a police officer in Salt Lake City I would immediately start looking
for a job in another jusirdiction.
Seems all involved continue to find new ways to make a bad situation worse while
also drawing it out as long as possible.
This is just the 1st step. The Constitution implies that there is to be no
police force at all. The defense of a State was put in the hands of its
citizens, through the organization of a Militia. There should never have been a
police officer to gather blood from the hospital to have analyzed, just as there
should never be police patrolling our streets as a standing army, pulling people
over for traffic violations, making unwarranted searches and seizures; &
making arrests where the charges are trumped up as the accused rots in jail for
months, so that the accused will cut a deal by pleading guilty to lesser
charges, or having the charges dropped because the accused has served enough
time in jail w/o ever going to trial, avoiding a jury by our peers, & there
is to be no policing force that could be mobilized by a corrupt government using
Martial Law, where all Constitutional Rights are suspended indefinitely. The
Constitution in this case required a Court to issue a warrant to the hospital to
deliver the analyzed blood for a trial as evidence, not for a police
investigation, biased against the accused, which risks evidence tampering and
planting. It's about rights over security.
A cop using his badge as an excuse to abuse citizens, place them under arrest
under fraudulent circumstances and to violate their 4th amendment rights under
the US Constitution SHOULD result in a termination. Payne is a bully with
a badge and if that kind of cop is tolerated at SLC PD then I have no confidence
in the police department.
Did you catch the part where "chief" Brown wrote a SEVENTEEN page letter
firing Payne? The chief should be fired for incompetence and wasting taxpayer
paid for paper.
@UtahBlueDevil:To compare Nurse Wubbels to an armed, convicted felon
(aggravated assault) who flees from police at night on the street and then
attempts to assault them with a knife is beyond laughable. This remains true
whether deadly force or less-than-deadly force was the proper way to subdue the
armed felon.Nurse Wubbels committed no crime, never threatened
anyone, never fled, was not armed, clearly and calmly articulated her position,
and the incident occurred in the (besides the officers' excesses) otherwise
calm, well-lit environment of the hospital. Wubbels was under legal obligation
not to violate nor allow a violation of the rights of her patient.There is good reason why both liberals and conservatives, supporters of police
and those who are quick to find fault most all tend to agree that the officers
were so far out of line with Nurse Wubbels. There simply isn't any
doubt.In the armed felon case, there remains doubt and many of us
remain willing to give officers the benefit of the doubt.
It's tough. The public needs to have confidence in the police. And most
police are good decent people trying to do the right thing - sometimes making
mistakes - but that is part of being human. But then you contrast this.... a
nurse is arrested, then released, and the police officer is fired for poor
judgement and that people can no longer trust his judgement. Contrast that
with a 55 year old man resists arrest, tries to flee, and is shot and killed.
The officer is still on the force.Two different situations, yet.
But the twist is in the latter case a second officer thought a taser was the
appropriate response, not deadly force. We need to make sure that
when things go wrong - and they will go wrong as police are human - that we
treat each situation fairly.
Both of those officers should be fired and indicted for harassment and assault.
We need to protect the public from these animals. Payne has no Business being in
society. He proved how Dangerous he is. It'd sad that it took 3 months for
The SLPD to figure this out. KeepThese animals off The street!Get Educated
I am amazed that anyone would think the punishment was too severe, this officer
should be criminally prosecuted and the law clearly supports such a result.
Reading the letter, reviewing the testimony, viewing the body cam footage
clearly supports the idea absent this video the boys in blue would have
protected a fellow officer and everything would have been washed away. Body
cameras should be on all the time the officer is on duty. For someone to call
this a "phony" story borders on the disgusting. These officers hold the
power to deprive people of liberty and the right to kill, as such they should be
held to very highest of standards and accountability. This officer showed a
complete disregard of the rights of the nurse and the unconscious truck driver.
He should be prosecuted criminally for the criminal behavior he exhibited. Let
us only hope this represents a vary rare exception.
I read the entire article, including the letter of termination, and I was left
with the feeling that this whole affair would have been handled far differently
if the body cam had not been turned on. Without that evidence, this whole
affair would have been a "he said, she said" affair and swept under the
rug. I also felt that in future events, officers will "conveniently"
forget to turn on their body cams.
@water rocket - Magna, UTIt is referred to as professional courtesy, and
yes, you are correct. When an officer's life is on the line he as to
depend on the officer watching his back.Surly you must know that
officers have the discretion to chew you out or to give you a ticket .... but
never both. You did know that didn't you?
@Meckofahess - Oct. 10, 2017 5:25 p.m.This whole mess could have been
handled better. This is a stain on the SLC Mayor’s office and Police
leadership.-----------------------No. It's a stain on
the two men who assaulted the nurse. I hope something is done so
that Payne can never again have a position in law enforcement and Tracy cannot
be promoted further than the rank to which he was demoted. The public needs
protection from these men.
@ christoph: Did you watch the video in its entirety? Nothing made up here,
dude. The officer violated the law and mistreated a member of the public while
doing so.@ utahcoyote: Firing is exactly what was/is called for - he
was shown a copy of the policy which follows current law and was an agreement
reached with the University and the police department.
Many many years ago I had to take a defensive driving course. The policeman
conducting the course made the statement that no police officer would ever make
a traffic stop of an officer who was seen violating any traffic laws. The
reason he gave was that you never want to offend another officer who you might
one day need to protect your back. Essentially what he was saying is that their
code is to protect each other, REGARDLESS of their conduct. To me, this is much
the same as how gangs behave, isn't it?
Why did it take sooooooo long to make this decision? Any decision? Mayor,
Chief? I know that the policy is for the chief to not be involved in this
investigation until after it is completed? Does it really take this long?
Really?A business has a sense of urgency when resolving damaging
issues? The public deserves to know when the investigation began. I’m
guessing nothing was going own until Nurse Wubbel’s attorney released the
video of her arrest. If true, then the SLCPD has a much bigger issue than this
incident.Simply give us a timeline of the internal review and then
fix your process if needed.
In some of the old movies police officers talk people out of jumping off of a
skyscraper. It is a tense situation. The officer speaks in a calm, rational
voice. The tone is kind and tranquil. They listen to the distraught person who
no longer wants to live. That voice was needed here. When anger takes over
reason leaves. Sad for everyone concerned.
It's nice to see that police officers are held accountable for their
actions. Hopefully, all police officers will realize that just because there is
a badge on your chest you can't do whatever you want.
Why is so much redacted in these letters?
Both should have been fired and the Chief given a final written warning to
straighten out his department's behavior. I certainly hope Biskupski gets
her due next election. It will be sorely deserved.
This whole mess could have been handled better. This is a stain on the SLC
Mayor’s office and Police leadership.
can't say this is unexpected, but it seems slpd may have went from not
doing enough to over reacting; especially in regard to payne. my biggest qualm
with payne was that even after logan police department told him to not worry
about, and they would handle it another way, he still persisted. anything he
did from that point on became gratuitous, especially his forceful arrest of
wubbels.all that said, it seems something like 30 days without pay
and mandatory training should have been enough punishment for a man who had
apparently served the police department well for many years. the demotion of
the lieutenant does seem appropriate, as he clearly delivered no leadership in
an escalating situation, and may well have well been the final push that payne
needed to arrest the charge nurse.frankly, what disturbed me most on
this whole situation was that the university of utah police department failed to
protect the nurse at all, in what was clearly not criminal behavior. they did
not even attempt to intervene on her behalf. her communicaion with her
superiors was heard by all involved, including them.
All done by actors on a stage and planned in advance, and probably big money
paid to them. And why? People love talking against cops and want lawlessness.
Don't believe every story you hear. And to think people made death
threats to this cop when the story is phony.
Hopefully the city will fire Chief Brown too for trying to cover it up, which
will get a little tricky since Biskupski worked WITH the Chief on trying to
sweep it under the rug.
Chief Brown likewise SHOULD be fired for trying to cover it up, as SHOULD the
various officers who stood around and watched someone's constitutional
rights being violated.Basic incompetence - on a GRAND scale!
Former police detective Jeff Payne will find it difficult to get employment with
any other police agency. He might be able to land a job as a security guard on
a job site if he is lucky. He gets no sympathy from me, and I suspect the Salt
Lake Police Union will keep a low profile on his firing.
The dominating factor in all of was arrogance....... Let's all learn
something from this.