Defending the Faith: New edition of 'Accounts of Divine Manifestations' is a significant work of Mormon scholarship

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  • sharrona layton, UT
    Oct. 17, 2017 9:05 a.m.

    KevinSim “ .. no man hath seen God at any time, except he(JS) hath borne record of the Son. (John 1:19 JST)Not found in any Greek Ms's.

    VS, “No one has ever seen God’. But the unique One, who is himself God…” …(John 1:18 NLT). E.g…,We may have knowledge of God. The idea is, "He has never indeed been seen by mortal eyes.
    “… for he(Moses) endured, as seeing him who is invisible . (Heb 11:27)

    No one has ever seen God…(1John 4:12 NIV,NET.) e.g…“…, which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see (1 Tim 6:16 KJV)

    no one can see me and live. (Ex 33: 18-20)… The LORD often appeared, but not in His full shekinah glory. Gen. 17:1. … he (Moses)endured, as seeing him who is invisible (Heb 11:27)

    @ Mormonism. the offspring of God,(Acts 17:29) refers to those who have been born spiritually of God.

    E.g…,John 1:12 , to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God
    (John 3:6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    This passage contradicts the concept of a flesh and bone Heavenly Mother who gives birth to heavenly spirit babies

  • KevinSim Springville, UT
    Oct. 16, 2017 12:56 p.m.

    Skeptic posted:

    =your statement: "The bottom line is that saying God is Spirit doesn't rule out
    =the LDS teaching that God is an exalted man". Helps put into perspective the
    =ancient history of the Greeks and their many warring gods. The more things
    =change it seems the more they remain the same. With today's American henotheism
    =Mormon religion colliding with Judaism, Islamism, Christianity and all the
    =others man can only be viewed as a confused innocent bystander in the great war
    =of the gods. It really seems man needs to be taught and practice more moral
    =ethics and less religion.

    Complaining about Mormonism because of the circuitous route religion has taken on what deities are like, from Greek theologians seeming them as supermen to Romans to Christians to Muslims and back again to Mormons seeing God as an exalted man, is kind of like complaining about the United States because of the circuitous route political systems have taken, from Greek democracy to emperors to kings to dictators, and back again to the republic that the United States of America currently is.

  • KevinSim Springville, UT
    Oct. 16, 2017 12:41 p.m.

    Sharrona posted:

    =God [is] spirit. ( *pneuma hο theos). There is ‘*no article’ in the Greek text
    =before the word spirit, and that emphasizes the quality or essence of the word.
    =The word spirit occurs first in the sentence for emphasis. The literal idea
    =would be like, “Absolutely spirit in His essence is God.”

    So does the statement that men who enter into the kingdom of God are also spirit mean something other than that they are also absolutely spirit in their essence? If so, why?

    =Jesus did not leave any doubt about this truth. God(The Father)= spirit!

    I notice you put "The Father" in parentheses. Why do you think that Jesus was talking about His Father in John 4:24, and not the Holy Spirit?

  • skeptic Phoenix, AZ
    Oct. 16, 2017 9:29 a.m.

    @KevinSim,
    your statement: "The bottom line is that saying God is Spirit doesn't rule out the LDS teaching that God is an exalted man". Helps put into perspective the ancient history of the Greeks and their many warring gods. The more things change it seems the more they remain the same. With today's American henotheism Mormon religion colliding with Judaism, Islamism, Christianity and all the others man can only be viewed as a confused innocent bystander in the great war of the gods. It really seems man needs to be taught and practice more moral ethics and less religion.

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Oct. 16, 2017 8:43 a.m.

    RE: KevinSim (John 4:24).God [is] spirit. ( *pneuma hο theos). There is ‘*no article’ in the Greek text before the word spirit, and that emphasizes the quality or essence of the word. The word spirit occurs first in the sentence for emphasis. The literal idea would be like, “Absolutely spirit in His essence is God.” Jesus did not leave any doubt about this truth. God(The Father)= spirit! E.g…

    Lectures On Faith - Q. What is the Father? A. He is a personage of glory and of power. (5:2.)Q. What is the Son? A. First, he is a personage of tabernacle. (5:2.)

    RE: Woohoo.JS taught the triu-nity. “… true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is *one God.”(2 Nephi 31:21) (**1John 5:7-8 KJV & JST) v.7 one= (*heis, the #1).
    “… we are one(en) John 17:22). One in unity (Preposition) different Greek words. (3 Nephi 11:36) And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one. (3Nephi 11:36)**see footnotes on 3 Nephi 11:32 a 1John 5:7-8 KJV.

    ” The three personal God “Mere Christianity. C.S. Lewis gives some other analogies of the Tri(3) Unity

  • KevinSim Springville, UT
    Oct. 15, 2017 8:43 p.m.

    Sharrona posted:

    =“Then the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the LORD filled
    =the tabernacle. Moses was not able to enter the tent of meeting because the
    =cloud had settled on it, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle. God
    =is Spirit

    Yes, God is Spirit. And John 3:5 quotes Jesus as saying, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." And John 3:6 quotes Jesus as saying, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." So in order for a man (or a woman, presumably) to be able to enter into the Kingdom of God, he (or she) must be born of the Spirit, according to verse 5, which means he (or she) is spirit, according to verse 6. So a man can be spirit. A human being has to be spirit if s/he is going to enter into the kingdom of God.

    The bottom line is that saying God is Spirit doesn't rule out the LDS teaching that God is an exalted man.

  • Woohoo Somewhere, ID
    Oct. 14, 2017 10:01 p.m.

    CMTM,

    Your original quote of JFS dealing with a disagreement between LDS and RLDS doctrine.

    RLDS had been more or less trying to suggest that based upon a single verse in the BOM that "Brigham Young went astray and apostatized because he said that Jesus Christ was not begotten of the Holy Ghost."

    LDS doctrine is perfectably acceptable in it's belief that was more or less restored by Joseph Smith's first vision that God the Father and Jesus Christ are two seperate personages because the idea of the trinitarinism "is not explicit in the New Testament, but emerges from a series of ecumenial councils convened to resolve doctrinal disputes in the forth century."

    Also "...the grammar of the New Testament, the Father and the Son are clearly represented as two different individuals."

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Oct. 14, 2017 12:20 p.m.

    @Woohoo “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.(Isa 7:14)

    "Behold! The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call Him Immanuel" which means, "God with us". Matthew 1:23

    "The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will *overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God(Luke 1:35 NIV,NET…)

    The phrase will* overshadow is a reference to God’s glorious presence at work . (Ex 40:34-35) “Then the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle. Moses was not able to enter the tent of meeting because the cloud had settled on it, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle. God is Spirit

  • CMTM , 00
    Oct. 14, 2017 11:19 a.m.

    RE: Woohoo “He did not teach them he was the Son of the Holy Ghost, but the Son of the Father. Truly, all things all things are done by the power of the Holy Ghost. It was through this power that Jesus was brought into this world,’but not at the Son of the Holy Ghost, but the Son of God."

    The Protoevangelium. Gen 3:15,”the seed of the woman is a man”, and yet in Roman's 16:20 he is called the God of peace, which identifies him as the Lord Jesus Christ. The reference to the seed of the woman as Christ is to related to the Virgin birth of the Messiah, as well as the “Hypostatic union” of the Divine nature with the Human nature of Christ. “ when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son , ’Made of a Woman…”Gal 4:4).E.g….

    The early Church fathers, such as Justin Martyr (160 AD) and Irenaeus (180 AD) regarded this verse "as the Protoevangelium, the first messianic prophecy in the Old Testament."E.g.. "For our GOD, Jesus the Christ, was conceived in the womb by Mary according to a dispensation, of the seed of David but also of the Holy Ghost" Ignatius (died 117 AD).

  • Woohoo Somewhere, ID
    Oct. 14, 2017 4:26 a.m.

    "...They tell us the Book of Mormon states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost. I challenge that statement. The Book of Mormon teaches No Such Thing! Neither does the Bible!” There's no exclamation point after bible.

    He continues with.. "It is true there is one passage that states so, but we must consider it in the light of other passages with which it is in conflict with."

    RE: . Alma 7:10... who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the ‘Holy Ghost(pneuma)’, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God,

    CTCM why leave out the rest of the context?

    Before your provided quote of Joseph Fielding Smith he provides an explanation for what the church teaches..

    "I firmly believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God in the flesh. He taught this doctrine to his disciples. He did not teach them he was the Son of the Holy Ghost, but the Son of the Father. Truly, all things all things are done by the power of the Holy Ghost. It was through this power that Jesus was brought into this world, but not at the Son of the Holy Ghost, but the Son of God."

    Also you left off some important things on the back of your quote as well...but I lack space...

  • CMTM , 00
    Oct. 13, 2017 3:48 p.m.

    RE: Vaughn Hughes. “ those who have encountered the divine”,( D&C 132:37)Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness.
    VS … Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.(Gal 3:6)
    -A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife.”(I Tim 3:2) The Apostles did not maintain any O.T. pattern of polygamy and they and the early church condemned it.

    1. Justin Martyr (c.160) rebukes the Jews for allowing polygamy: 2. Irenaeus (c.180) condemns the Gnostics for polygamy." 3. Tertullian (c.207)-Marriage to one women.

    Doctrine of Salvation. Vol 1:19.? Joseph Fielding Smith. “They tell us the Book of Mormon states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost. I challenge that statement. The Book of Mormon teaches No Such Thing! Neither does the Bible!”

    RE: . Alma 7:10.The Miracle of the Virgin Birth. who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the ‘Holy Ghost(pneuma)’, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God,

    "….The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God(Luke 1:35 NIV,NET…)

  • Vaughn Hughes Sandpoint, ID
    Oct. 13, 2017 2:34 p.m.

    There is rich irony here. "New edition of 'Accounts of Divine Manifestations' is a significant work of Mormon scholarship." It is the scholars at work here. Not those who have encountered the divine. Such "encounters" are necessarily discussed from long ago in our Mormon history. There is no contemporary treatment possible because of our scripturally abberational modern teaching that mentioning (not describing) such experiences is offensive to God. This changed modern teaching unfortunately throws these early saints under the bus, including Joseph Smith. But as has been admitted in general conference by the Brethren, they look to the scholars when there is something they need help understanding. (e.g., modern seers have no idea what a seer stone is or how to use it--it's a historical artifact to ask scholars about!) The heavens were demonstrably open early on. We dance around it attempting to give the illusion today.

  • skeptic Phoenix, AZ
    Oct. 13, 2017 11:36 a.m.

    @mhenshaw,
    If you or the church or anyone else can provide any evidence or prove determining the BOM to be an authentic history even the Pope will come running to join the Mormon church. It is believed that Jesus is. God of light and truth so the physical truth should be evident and not the dark hidden secret of Satan.

  • CMTM , 00
    Oct. 13, 2017 8:31 a.m.

    RE: Craig Clark “The value of these documents In the history of world religions. E.g…,

    “No ancient literature has survived in its original form; everything we have is derived from copies of the originals. The NT is no exception. However, in comparison with any other ancient literature, the NT is without a peer—both in terms of the chronological proximity and the surviving number. Several ancient authorities are preserved in only a handful of manuscripts. Not so with the NT. There are approximately 5,500 Greek witnesses, ranging in date from the second century AD into the middle ages. Besides the Greek evidence, there are nearly 30,000 versional copies (e.g., Latin, Coptic, and Syriac),

    and over 1,000,000 quotations support from the NT in the church Fathers. NT textual criticism has always had an embarrassment of riches unparalleled in any other field.” Bible Net

  • mhenshaw Leesburg, VA
    Oct. 13, 2017 8:12 a.m.

    >>If the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction then it casts doubt on all the other supposed divine manifestations.

    If the Book of Mormon is authentic history, then the opposite is true.

  • MoreMan San Diego, CA
    Oct. 12, 2017 8:05 p.m.

    Because, Mormons, like everybody else, just want to believe. And own land.

  • skeptic Phoenix, AZ
    Oct. 12, 2017 2:55 p.m.

    Most all religions, superstitions and churches have accounts of Divine Manifestations. The Mormons have some very special ones like when Martin Harris walked and talked with Jesus disguised as a deer. Because these are manifestation in one's head they can not be proven true or false, But where the LDS church differs is that their manifestations are mostly related to and correlated with the Book of Mormon that is planted in the earth of the Americas which has never demonstrated any truth or authenticity of its existence. If the Book of Mormon had been presented as an inspired allegory rather than a factual history then it and the other Mormon accounts of divine manifestations would not be vulnerable to be proven fiction. If the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction then it casts doubt on all the other supposed divine manifestations.

  • Craig Clark Boulder, CO
    Oct. 12, 2017 11:59 a.m.

    “The value of these documents,” Welch remarks, “is immeasurable. In the history of world religions. . . . "
    ____________________
    I wasn’t present to witness these miraculous happenings or similar claims of other religions based on defining watershed events. Moses heard the voice of God speak from a burning bush. Later on he received the ten commandments at Sinai in the land of Midian. But I wasn’t there to witness either event. Paul had his epiphany on the road to Damascus. Mohammed was visited by Gabriel who gave him the Koran. There were reported heavenly visitations at Lourdes, then at Fatima in 1917. Why have I never seen anything so spectacular as that?

    It might really have been something to behold. Or it might be a disappointment for one having unrealistic expectations of what it would be like. Suppose I saw a burning bush but heard no voice? Just a dried bush burning to ashes. That might affect my capacity to believe it as the basis for religious claims of primacy over other religions.