In our opinion: No, Patagonia, Utah's politicians are not 'evil'

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  • Brandon Alleman Portland, OR
    Dec. 6, 2017 4:13 p.m.

    I agree that Chouinard does a disservice to his cause by not being careful with his language. The same goes however to Trump and Zinke. Both have made spleen venting the norm from the highest offices of government. I am personally disappointed and saddened by Zinke's dismissal of public comments and counter attacks against Patagonia. Likewise, Trump's inaccurate and nonspecific reasoning for his actions.

  • MikeRidgway 25 years in , UT
    Dec. 6, 2017 10:13 a.m.

    Actually, some of them are.

  • EDM Castle Valley, Utah
    Dec. 6, 2017 8:41 a.m.

    OK. So Utah politicians are not exactly evil. But too many are self-righteous. And the problem with self-righteousness is the inability to see when you are doing harm.

  • cavetrollhead West Jordan, UT
    Dec. 6, 2017 1:46 a.m.

    The most important issue here, in my mind, is the threat to federalism that is the federal control of state land.

  • derrellwilliams Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 9:23 p.m.

    Yvon Chouinard isn't the CEO of Patagonia...might want to update that.

  • jsf Centerville, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 5:39 p.m.

    Patagonia a corporation dictating social control.

    Why have there not been set aside national monuments in the eastern states to rival those in the western states.

    There are a horrendous amounts of antiquities not protected. Why only here?

  • tqseal Liberal Central (Sugarhouse), UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 5:34 p.m.

    I've boycotted Patagonia and other outdoor product companies since they decided to take the ORC to Denver. Every time I see someone wearing a Patagonia hat, I just shake my head. Their rhetoric regarding public lands is astonishing.

  • djc Stansbury Park, Ut
    Dec. 5, 2017 4:54 p.m.

    I disagree with your opinion. I think the desire to profit from God's gifts is stronger than the desire to share God's gifts with all his children. These national monuments are a means to preserve into the future a small part of our planet. I think there is enough land available for the exploiters. To me it is evil to do this, so I agree with Patagonia whoever that is.

  • goosehuntr Tooele, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 4:45 p.m.

    Civil discourse is gone. We are in a bad way with how we communicate our thoughts and opinions with one another.

  • Highland Horseman American Fork, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 3:38 p.m.

    The Antiquities Act needs to either be repealed, or changed to mandate state legislative approval of a presidential monument decree before it can go into effect. As it stands, the Act is presently abused by presidents with political agendas. The Bears Ears Monument wasn't just about preserving antiquities, it was about preventing development of natural resources in the name of climate control.

  • JSKM1232 Sandy, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 3:07 p.m.

    @USAlover - Salt Lake City, UT

    "Patagonia cares about the botton line. End of story."
    - - - - -
    Entirely NOT TRUE. Yvon Chouinard put HIS money where his mouth is. In the early 1990's he contributed 715,000 acres of land he had purchased and gave to The Conservacion Patagonica a land trust he had helped set up in Chile and Argentina. That 715,000 acres is now called Pumalin National Park (in Chilean Patagonia), the land trust purchased another 726,000 acres now named Corcovado National Park (in Chilean Patagonia), in 2002 a new 165,000 acre National Park named Monte Leone (in Argentine Patagonia) was established. The land trust is now working towards developing a 650,000 acre Patagonia National Park in the Valle Chacabuco, they just purchased the Estancia Valle Chacabuco ranch (165,000 acres) working toward that end.
    Chouinard values the national parks of EVERY country probably more so than their own citizens (here's looking at you Utah).

  • JimDabakis slc, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 3:07 p.m.

    Despite all the high-fives' this is a sad time. What one President can undo--another can re-do. With our public land, the only certainty is uncertainty. There was a window of opportunity. The Obama people were ready, willing and able to work on the Bishop Public Land Initiative. I went to the White House three times--they were waiting. But there was not the courage in Utah to take on the vested interests and a PLI was never presented to the Obama Administration. That is sad--I fear we have lost the opportunity to work out a serious, lasting solution for another generation.

  • GaryO Virginia Beach, VA
    Dec. 5, 2017 3:05 p.m.

    Re: "Except in very rare circumstances, local people should have a meaningful say in the governance and uses of the lands that surround them"

    Of course they should have a say . . . The same say that all Americans have . . . No more, no less.

    We the people of the United States own that land, and we don't want those whining local yokels in Utah to pillage, plunder, and destroy OUR land.

    Got it yet?

  • JSKM1232 Sandy, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 2:41 p.m.

    @65TossPowerTrap - Salmon, ID

    "Wake me up when the D-News editorial board calls out Trump for one of his infinite number of personal insults. The D-News gives that guy a free ride."
    - - - - -
    I am absolutely amazed 65 Toss, this is twice in one year that I completely agree with you!! Twice, unbelievable.

  • JSKM1232 Sandy, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 2:37 p.m.

    @jsf - Centerville, UT
    "@801Steelheader the argument used by the super big monument supporters was the feds were not taking something they already own. Sorry, but at the current time the state can't sell the federal land either. They don't own it. Again liberal propaganda to limit public access to public lands"
    - - - - -
    You comment makes absolutely no sense what so ever. All you managed to do was agree with 801Steel and then throw in "liberal propaganda".
    You're right the state can't sell federal land they don't own. How is that either "liberal" or "conservative"?

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 2:09 p.m.

    @JBs - 12:04 p.m.
    RE: "Hitler, Stalin, Assad, those of that ilk did horrifically evil things. Our reps aren't evil, just misguided IMO. The word evil is used too much and therefore waters down it's meaning. Let's stop"...
    ---
    You are right.

    "Evil" has come to mean "Anybody who disagrees with me on politics" today.

    It's sad IMO.

    Some people thinking your "Evil" if you are a Democrat. And others thinking you are "Evil" if you are a Republican. It's just sad. I think there are good people on both sides. I know there are good people on both sides.

    It doesn't make you "Evil" if you disagree with me. Even if you disagree on whether an area should have National Monument status or just BLM or National Forest Service protection.

    We can disagree and not be Evil IMO. Don't know if Chouinard and other radicals out there agree with that though. Way too open minded for them.

  • hokieland43 Blacksburg, VA
    Dec. 5, 2017 2:08 p.m.

    Several people have accused DN for only taking Trump's side. DN has written articles directly in opposition of Trump and about many issues and allowed writers from both sides to state their opinions in the paper.

    Ex: https://www.deseretnews.com
    /article/865664336/
    In-our-opinion-Donald-Trump-
    should-resign-his-candidacy.html

    Individual Opinion pieces were also written also written in favor of each of the candidates during the election.

    I also don't feel like this article was targeted at Trump's position on this issue but, instead was focused on civility in disagreements, which both democrats and republicans currently have problems with.

    As far as the monuments go, I think far too many people need to learn more about the issues before they make blanket statements and shout about either side. I for one, don't feel informed enough to do that.

  • jsf Centerville, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 2:03 p.m.

    "The Native Americas who were there first wanted those monuments." The natives that were there first don't exist anymore, so how could they want them. The five tribes mentioned came later. They drove off or killed the ones that were here before. Given they are invaders, and that we are invaders, kind of makes us equal in our demands for the land.

  • jsf Centerville, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 1:40 p.m.

    What is the political reason for the creation of the Grand Stair Case monument? Certainly not the five tribes. Can't apply that reason to protest the Grand Stair Case reduction.

  • Fred44 Salt Lake City, Utah
    Dec. 5, 2017 1:37 p.m.

    As FT said, this could have all been resolved had our illustrious congressional delegation got off of their backsides and come up with a solution. Rob Bishop couldn't even get his efforts to the floor of the house. President Obama was willing to work with the Utah delegation but there was one problem, they could not work with him because of their desire to prevent him from achieving anything you would have to give him credit for. Our delegation is a joke, they are partisan to the core and are only interested in what is good for them and their party and then maybe the people of Utah. They sat for four years with an opportunity to work with the previous president and passed on it because of their partisan nature

  • Jamchild Centerville, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 1:36 p.m.

    Orrin Hatch reversing his position to support Roy Moore (“that’s the only Republican we can get down there”) is less easy to dismiss as anything other than evil. Supporting a politician who habitually prayed on young teenagers in his 30s, who then denied knowing these women whom he clearly knew and dated. And Hatch switching his earlier moral stance on the man because of political expediency? What else can we call it?

  • jsf Centerville, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 1:35 p.m.

    @801Steelheader the argument used by the super big monument supporters was the feds were not taking something they already own. Sorry, but at the current time the state can't sell the federal land either. They don't own it. Again liberal propaganda to limit public access to public lands.

  • wasatchcascade Salt Lake City, Utah
    Dec. 5, 2017 12:19 p.m.

    And Mike Noel, months back, during the Brian Head fires, calling the "other side" Squirrel Squeezers, Bunny Lovers, Tree Huggers, Rock Lickers. And Phil Lyman in the past two months, heated comments he has made re a Federal Judge - which I won't repeat. And language Hatch used when Zinke was in SLC re Native American Indians; and/or language Gov Gary Herbert used when the Outdoor Groups "pulled" from Utah. Political ideology and identity frames so many debates and discussions; and when outsiders see politicians (in Utah) that have little or no sense of what is on the ground or along the landscapes - and then pontificate - it's no wonder they are perplexed and engaged. And then of course Mr. Trump, he always has been a model of decorum with no reason for concern or complaint, particularly in the pages of this paper.

  • JBs Logan, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 12:04 p.m.

    Hitler, Stalin, Assad, those of that ilk did horrifically evil things. Our reps aren't evil, just misguided IMO. The word evil is used too much and therefore waters down it's meaning. Let's stop.

  • MAx Gestalt Heber City, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 11:59 a.m.

    I appreciate this article. I attended the rally on Monday at the state capitol and I enjoyed standing up for my views relative to public lands.

    But I also am a huge proponent for civil public discourse. While I joined in many chants, I abstained from those based in ridicule and cruel school-yard simplicity. As I have traveled I have learned that I almost always have more in common with those I meet, despite our apparent (or not) differences. Embracing those commonalities has led to constructive, enlightening conversations and, in many cases, friendships and mutual respect.

    I will be honest - I support Monument status for Bears Ears and Grand Staircase. It is my personal opinion that this is the right thing to do for these lands and the communities around them. I have done my homework. My interpretation leads me to this position. I also understand that someone else could land in a different place, and that it is their right to do so. If a common ground is to be found, it will be found in the arena of respect and open dialogue, listening and sharing. That is the bedrock of democracy, being a good neighbor, and being a patriot.

    I trust that the PEOPLE of UT will accomplish this.

  • There You Go Again St George, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 11:30 a.m.

    10/8/16...

    The DN told readers trump was evil.

    Yesterday...

    The DN celebrated trump's dismemberment of 2 National Monuments.

    So if the DN went from trump is evil to a trump celebration...

    Will the DN go from trump celebration to trump is evil... again...?

    Quien sabe?

  • ECR Burke, VA
    Dec. 5, 2017 11:29 a.m.

    I find it interesting that you challenge a private citizen for suggesting that Utah’s Congressional delegation are ‘wackos’ or ‘evil’ when our president uses smoker terminology to describe those he disagrees with almost every time he speaks. Has the DN Editorial staff written similar criticisms of him and his statements?

    Above all other individuals in this country, the President, and right behind him, those serving in Congress, should be saying and doing things that bring us together rather than splitting us apart. So when a private citizen makes those kind of remarks it seems they are just following the example of those in leadership positions.

  • 65TossPowerTrap Salmon, ID
    Dec. 5, 2017 11:27 a.m.

    Wake me up when the D-News editorial board calls out Trump for one of his infinite number of personal insults. The D-News gives that guy a free ride.

  • Sportsfan123 Salt lake, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 11:03 a.m.

    Apparently some commentors dont listen to the Pres. Instead just jump on the hate train.

    Yes, Bears Ears should be preserved, and it has. Trump made a compromise, there are private land owners that lost use of their own land because of govt over reach by the Oblama admin. Simply put, the designated land for the momument was too large and went far beyond the legal requirements of the antiquities act which clearly states the designated area should be as small as possible.

    Trump made a decision that forced a compromise between both sides whether or not each side likes it there needs to be give and take in "fairness to all" - isn't that the hallmark statement for all liberals?

    Its funny libs dont live by the montra that they so staunchly claim - Hypocracy!

    Also keep in mind that States rights are a big deal especially for those that live in Utah, for once we have a president that acknowledges the importance of states rights, the fed govt screws up everything they get involved with - look at our health care system for example.

    Leave it to the states to decide how to handle their own lands.

  • FT salt lake city, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 10:58 a.m.

    Our elected leaders are on a sugar high right now but it won't last and they'll be left with a bad hangover. Stop for a moment and look at the situation rationally, from a legal perspective. If the courts actually upheld Trump's actions, then the next Democratic President can simply reinstall the boundaries by use of the Antiquities Act. More chaos ensues. Obama asked Rob Bishop to find a congressional solution 4 years prior to the designation. He failed. Legal experts say Trump will lose because there is no law granted by Congress to rescind or alter a Monument.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 10:52 a.m.

    What Chouinard misses is... the Antiquities Act is intended to protect antiquities (articles of scientific or historical value). Not meant as environmentalist's tool to fence off millions of acres of land. It's intended as emergency protection for small areas of scientific or historical value discovered during a President's term (that can't wait for action from Congress).

    AA's been mis-used by politicians with environmental concerns recently.

    I like nature. But the AA was not passed to protect nature. It was passed to give President emergency powers to protect artifacts/antiquities discovered before they are destroyed.

    We have "Wilderness" designation. National Forests. And National Parks. National Monuments, BLM protection. And State and local special preservation areas to protect nature. That's not what AA is for.

    Chouinard's concern and passion are respectable. But some of their methods (hijacking AA, threatening people, name-calling, insulting people who disagree)... is not.

    You attract more people with honey than vinegar. Yesterdays protesters turned me off to their cause a little with their constant use of profanity and insults and offensive language.

  • coltakashi Richland, WA
    Dec. 5, 2017 10:43 a.m.

    The Bears Ears was always public land administered by the Bureau of Land Management. It will continue to be. A national monument restricts potential uses of public land by the public. Any significant change in land use will have to undergo a public planning process and environmental impact study. Any special Native American interests will be protected under the NHPA. But the US Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit ruled that Tribal claims of religious significance for mountains and valleys do not control use of public lands. After all, the Navajo graze cattle on the sacred San Francisco peaks in Arizona.

  • airnaut Everett, WA
    Dec. 5, 2017 10:28 a.m.

    The Native Americas who were there first wanted those monuments.

    Every poll in Utah showed that MOST Utahns wanted the monuments left as is.

    Every poll showed that MOST Americans wanted the monuments left as is....

    When politicians pick Corporate, Political, or select special interest groups over the those they are elected to 'represent', then YES! - that is evil.

  • bikeboy Boise, ID
    Dec. 5, 2017 10:17 a.m.

    DN, you did a good job of explaining the problem. And many of the ensuing comments also do a good job of illustrating the problem. Refusal to acknowledge the merits of "the other side of the issue."

    "Can't we all just get along?"
    - Rodney King, 20th-century philosopher

    I'm confused, though.

    Will Patagonia quit selling their merchandise in Utah? And if we disagree with Yvon Chouinard, should we boycott the company? (Doesn't matter much to me personally... I can't afford that fancy stuff!)

  • goodnight-goodluck Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 9:57 a.m.

    While the jury is still out on patently evil. I don't believe for a minute any of them have any consideration for the citizens of Utah especially if the citizens desires and interests conflict with those of their major donors, super pacs etc.

  • Kent C. DeForrest Provo, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 9:51 a.m.

    As long as our Congressional delegation keeps lying about economics (these tax cuts are for the middle class, tax cuts pay for themselves, adding $1 trillion to the debt doesn't matter, and increasing productivity through investment will increase wages), I will maintain that our representatives are evil, perhaps unknowingly so, but if so, they should get better information. Personally, I find it difficult to believe that they do not know that they are telling whoppers in an attempt to sell gullible voters on their tax bonus to the wealthy.

  • 801Steelheader Sandy, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 9:50 a.m.

    If you don't see this as a incremental step towards state control and subsequent sale of public to the extraction industry you are naive or haven't been paying attention.

  • mamiejane Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 9:45 a.m.

    How do we make peace with a Republican like Orrin Hatch who says Donald Trump is one of the best President's he's worked with? And how do we make peace with Donald Trump when he advocates for a man like Roy Moore who has a history of disregarding the law and now we have good reason to believe he molested young girls? How do we make peace with Donald Trump who has lied more than 1,000 times his first year in office? And how do we make peace with the Republicans in Congress who passed a brutally dishonest tax plan that will punish people who work for a lving? And while it may seem to some that Clinton and Obama overreached when they designated monuments, they did so in a way the protects those lands for future generations. Trump's unilateral act will make those lands subject to destruction that can never be undone. What level of greed and destruction qualifies as evil? If anything, it is the failure of moral leadership by the Deseret News to call out the horror of the modern Republican Party that threatens America.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 9:34 a.m.

    He said IT'S evil, not THEY'RE evil.
    Semantics aside, they're not evil. Short sighted, foolish, self interested, beholden (not to us), partisan, you name it.
    But not evil.

  • JSKM1232 Sandy, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 9:25 a.m.

    Patagonia is correct in its assumptions and statement!

  • What in Tucket Provo, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 9:17 a.m.

    Only 5% of Utah is arable. That you can grow crops upon. That means 95% of the state is basically uninhabited.

  • Light and Liberty St George, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 9:11 a.m.

    All liberal progressives: When I hear all the tirades against Trump I am compelled to ask them if I feel Obama was on a consistent path toward Socialism and I think he is evil for doing so, that his policies were 'irrational, abusive, debasing, and hypocritical', do I have the right to tell all of you to 'promote rational discourse' about Trump, rather than 'mudslinging'? It makes you wonder about a company that panders to a bunch of rich kids and owes there very existence to the concept of entrepeneurship and profit, both of which Obama despised, while Trump, at minimum, supports. Irony abounds. If Patogonia wants to actually live up to its espoused policy of hatred toward profit, they ought to give all their profits to the poor and spend their time cleaning up the environment, rather than taking advantage of the workers that make their products and then selling them at a high profit to enrich themselves. Irony abounds.

  • USAlover Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 9:06 a.m.

    Patagonia cares about the botton line. End of story.

  • Impartial7 DRAPER, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 9:00 a.m.

    "Such charged rhetoric is unhelpful in finding the proper balance regarding public lands in Utah and throughout the West."

    Really? Where was the criticism from the D-News when Bishop, Lyman, Noel, etc. were railing against Obama and the "evil federal government"? Utah politicians are driven by rhetoric. It's what fires up their base and gets them reelected. Sad.

  • Esquire Springville, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 8:58 a.m.

    Monument opponents are all about their own monetary gain or supporting those who want to gain off the public's lands. What does that make them. I fear that the DesNews is all in now with the GOP.

  • stevo123 Driggs, ID
    Dec. 5, 2017 8:53 a.m.

    Evil, not likely. Short sighted? Yes.

  • Mark from Montana Davis County, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 8:25 a.m.

    No, the Utah congressional contingent is not evil. I do wonder at how they arrive at some of the decisions. Likely the best course of action on Bears Ears was to shrink it, but not as much as happened.

    What I don't understand is how Hatch can support, even write, the tax bill that he did, and yes this is on topic with whether Hatch is evil or not. I don't think Hatch is evil, but I also find that he, and the rest, make decisions that put the middle class at risk, that injure the poor, all while grossly helping the rich to make more money. That isn't evil, but I do question their motives.

  • Woodworker Highland, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 8:10 a.m.

    I agree with the opinions of this article; incivility causes divisiveness, not thoughtful solutions.
    Let us calmly listen to one another and work on good solution. And don't stop traffic thinking it's freedom of expression. It's behavior that put people's safety and health at risk. Thank you.

  • Utah Girl Chronicles Eagle Mountain, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 8:06 a.m.

    I am so looking forward to taking my family camping at Bears Ears next summer to see all the natural gas flumes light up the night sky and experience all the fracking earthquakes! My kids will love that! We won't go near the cyanide leaching ponds, of course, but they're so pretty, we'll take loads of pictures!

    Before we head home, we'll be sure to head over to the Kaiparowits Plateau and breathe all that super clean coal dust! Trump says it has therapeutic qualities and he always speaks truth!

    Thank you Utah politicians and thank you President Trump!

  • Prometheus Platypus Orem, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 8:00 a.m.

    Maybe not evil, but definitely greedy and shortsighted.

    Love the way they chase out renewable profit, for digging for riches just like Brigham suggested.
    Yeah Patagonia is evil for wanting clean open spaces for all?

    This paper seems proud that the GOP in Utah, will leave a legacy of used up land, and filthy places for our posterity.

    We need more super site clean-up's payed for by the evil feds, because Utah's all about privatizing the profits and socializing the costs.

    Besides isn't Rio Tino beautiful instead of a mountain?

    Utah traded the point of the mountain for swamp land, because greedy self serving legislators, and the Utah taxpayer will fund it.

  • wwd Meridian, ID
    Dec. 5, 2017 7:58 a.m.

    Well said.

  • 10CC Bountiful, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 7:37 a.m.

    Why such flagrant disregard for the 5 tribes that proposed Bears Ears in the first place?

    The Utes and Navajos, adversaries for hundreds of year before white settlers came here, came together to propose 1.9 million acres for Bears Ears. (It was *their* idea, not Obama's.)

    Are these tribes nothing more than collateral damage in the revenge punch from Utahns to Obama?

    It's disgraceful. On the same level as Trump taking the opportunity to use the "Pocahontas" slur against another political enemy *during* a ceremony to honor the Navajo Code Talkers... in front the Andrew Jackson statue, the man responsible for the "Trail of Tears" eviction of Native Americans from their homelands in North Carolina all the way out to Oklahoma.

    (Many Navajo fled to Bears Ears to avoid their own "Trail of Tears" when they were going to also be evicted.)

    "In your face!"

    The Native American tribes who proposed Bears Ears to Obama are nothing more than footnotes in the Utah victory over Obama.

    End the charade - maybe the Ute tribe should push to change the state name to "Deseret", what the white settlers wanted in the first place.

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 5, 2017 7:08 a.m.

    The photo says it all, American fascism in full flower, aided and abetted by Utah's senators.

  • eastcoastcoug Danbury, CT
    Dec. 5, 2017 7:05 a.m.

    I fully agree, DNews. Let's promote rational discourse that doesn't de-humanize everyone we disagree with. And let's start with the primary source of that irrational, abusive discourse, our Tweeting, debasing Dehumanizer-in-Chief.

    Until the far right faction that supports this man purely for political reasons, wakes up and realizes you can't preach one set of values with a leader who doesn't practice them, we are stuck in this hateful, mudslinging climate. And I say the same for liberal politicians who say they are Feminists while abusing women. Hypocrisy kills your cause - whichever side you are on.