I agree that Chouinard does a disservice to his cause by not being careful with
his language. The same goes however to Trump and Zinke. Both have made spleen
venting the norm from the highest offices of government. I am personally
disappointed and saddened by Zinke's dismissal of public comments and
counter attacks against Patagonia. Likewise, Trump's inaccurate and
nonspecific reasoning for his actions.
Actually, some of them are.
OK. So Utah politicians are not exactly evil. But too many are self-righteous.
And the problem with self-righteousness is the inability to see when you are
The most important issue here, in my mind, is the threat to federalism that is
the federal control of state land.
Yvon Chouinard isn't the CEO of Patagonia...might want to update that.
Patagonia a corporation dictating social control.Why have there not
been set aside national monuments in the eastern states to rival those in the
western states. There are a horrendous amounts of antiquities not
protected. Why only here?
I've boycotted Patagonia and other outdoor product companies since they
decided to take the ORC to Denver. Every time I see someone wearing a Patagonia
hat, I just shake my head. Their rhetoric regarding public lands is astonishing.
I disagree with your opinion. I think the desire to profit from God's gifts
is stronger than the desire to share God's gifts with all his children.
These national monuments are a means to preserve into the future a small part of
our planet. I think there is enough land available for the exploiters. To me it
is evil to do this, so I agree with Patagonia whoever that is.
Civil discourse is gone. We are in a bad way with how we communicate our
thoughts and opinions with one another.
The Antiquities Act needs to either be repealed, or changed to mandate state
legislative approval of a presidential monument decree before it can go into
effect. As it stands, the Act is presently abused by presidents with political
agendas. The Bears Ears Monument wasn't just about preserving antiquities,
it was about preventing development of natural resources in the name of climate
@USAlover - Salt Lake City, UT"Patagonia cares about the botton
line. End of story."- - - - -Entirely NOT TRUE. Yvon Chouinard
put HIS money where his mouth is. In the early 1990's he contributed
715,000 acres of land he had purchased and gave to The Conservacion Patagonica a
land trust he had helped set up in Chile and Argentina. That 715,000 acres is
now called Pumalin National Park (in Chilean Patagonia), the land trust
purchased another 726,000 acres now named Corcovado National Park (in Chilean
Patagonia), in 2002 a new 165,000 acre National Park named Monte Leone (in
Argentine Patagonia) was established. The land trust is now working towards
developing a 650,000 acre Patagonia National Park in the Valle Chacabuco, they
just purchased the Estancia Valle Chacabuco ranch (165,000 acres) working toward
that end. Chouinard values the national parks of EVERY country probably
more so than their own citizens (here's looking at you Utah).
Despite all the high-fives' this is a sad time. What one President can
undo--another can re-do. With our public land, the only certainty is
uncertainty. There was a window of opportunity. The Obama people were ready,
willing and able to work on the Bishop Public Land Initiative. I went to the
White House three times--they were waiting. But there was not the courage in
Utah to take on the vested interests and a PLI was never presented to the Obama
Administration. That is sad--I fear we have lost the opportunity to work out a
serious, lasting solution for another generation.
Re: "Except in very rare circumstances, local people should have a
meaningful say in the governance and uses of the lands that surround
them"Of course they should have a say . . . The same say that
all Americans have . . . No more, no less.We the people of the
United States own that land, and we don't want those whining local yokels
in Utah to pillage, plunder, and destroy OUR land.Got it yet?
@65TossPowerTrap - Salmon, ID"Wake me up when the D-News
editorial board calls out Trump for one of his infinite number of personal
insults. The D-News gives that guy a free ride."- - - - -I am
absolutely amazed 65 Toss, this is twice in one year that I completely agree
with you!! Twice, unbelievable.
@jsf - Centerville, UT"@801Steelheader the argument used by the super
big monument supporters was the feds were not taking something they already own.
Sorry, but at the current time the state can't sell the federal land
either. They don't own it. Again liberal propaganda to limit public access
to public lands"- - - - -You comment makes absolutely no sense
what so ever. All you managed to do was agree with 801Steel and then throw in
"liberal propaganda". You're right the state can't sell
federal land they don't own. How is that either "liberal" or
@JBs - 12:04 p.m.RE: "Hitler, Stalin, Assad, those of that ilk did
horrifically evil things. Our reps aren't evil, just misguided IMO. The
word evil is used too much and therefore waters down it's meaning.
Let's stop"...---You are right."Evil"
has come to mean "Anybody who disagrees with me on politics" today.It's sad IMO.Some people thinking your "Evil"
if you are a Democrat. And others thinking you are "Evil" if you are a
Republican. It's just sad. I think there are good people on both sides.
I know there are good people on both sides.It doesn't make you
"Evil" if you disagree with me. Even if you disagree on whether an
area should have National Monument status or just BLM or National Forest Service
protection.We can disagree and not be Evil IMO. Don't know if
Chouinard and other radicals out there agree with that though. Way too open
minded for them.
Several people have accused DN for only taking Trump's side. DN has written
articles directly in opposition of Trump and about many issues and allowed
writers from both sides to state their opinions in the paper.Ex:
https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865664336/In-our-opinion-Donald-Trump-should-resign-his-candidacy.htmlIndividual Opinion pieces were also written also written in favor of each of
the candidates during the election.I also don't feel like this
article was targeted at Trump's position on this issue but, instead was
focused on civility in disagreements, which both democrats and republicans
currently have problems with.As far as the monuments go, I think far
too many people need to learn more about the issues before they make blanket
statements and shout about either side. I for one, don't feel informed
enough to do that.
"The Native Americas who were there first wanted those monuments." The
natives that were there first don't exist anymore, so how could they want
them. The five tribes mentioned came later. They drove off or killed the ones
that were here before. Given they are invaders, and that we are invaders, kind
of makes us equal in our demands for the land.
What is the political reason for the creation of the Grand Stair Case monument?
Certainly not the five tribes. Can't apply that reason to protest the
Grand Stair Case reduction.
As FT said, this could have all been resolved had our illustrious congressional
delegation got off of their backsides and come up with a solution. Rob Bishop
couldn't even get his efforts to the floor of the house. President Obama
was willing to work with the Utah delegation but there was one problem, they
could not work with him because of their desire to prevent him from achieving
anything you would have to give him credit for. Our delegation is a joke, they
are partisan to the core and are only interested in what is good for them and
their party and then maybe the people of Utah. They sat for four years with an
opportunity to work with the previous president and passed on it because of
their partisan nature
Orrin Hatch reversing his position to support Roy Moore (“that’s the
only Republican we can get down there”) is less easy to dismiss as
anything other than evil. Supporting a politician who habitually prayed on young
teenagers in his 30s, who then denied knowing these women whom he clearly knew
and dated. And Hatch switching his earlier moral stance on the man because of
political expediency? What else can we call it?
@801Steelheader the argument used by the super big monument supporters was the
feds were not taking something they already own. Sorry, but at the current time
the state can't sell the federal land either. They don't own it.
Again liberal propaganda to limit public access to public lands.
And Mike Noel, months back, during the Brian Head fires, calling the "other
side" Squirrel Squeezers, Bunny Lovers, Tree Huggers, Rock Lickers. And Phil
Lyman in the past two months, heated comments he has made re a Federal Judge -
which I won't repeat. And language Hatch used when Zinke was in SLC re
Native American Indians; and/or language Gov Gary Herbert used when the Outdoor
Groups "pulled" from Utah. Political ideology and identity frames so
many debates and discussions; and when outsiders see politicians (in Utah) that
have little or no sense of what is on the ground or along the landscapes - and
then pontificate - it's no wonder they are perplexed and engaged. And then
of course Mr. Trump, he always has been a model of decorum with no reason for
concern or complaint, particularly in the pages of this paper.
Hitler, Stalin, Assad, those of that ilk did horrifically evil things. Our reps
aren't evil, just misguided IMO. The word evil is used too much and
therefore waters down it's meaning. Let's stop.
I appreciate this article. I attended the rally on Monday at the state capitol
and I enjoyed standing up for my views relative to public lands. But
I also am a huge proponent for civil public discourse. While I joined in many
chants, I abstained from those based in ridicule and cruel school-yard
simplicity. As I have traveled I have learned that I almost always have more in
common with those I meet, despite our apparent (or not) differences. Embracing
those commonalities has led to constructive, enlightening conversations and, in
many cases, friendships and mutual respect. I will be honest - I
support Monument status for Bears Ears and Grand Staircase. It is my personal
opinion that this is the right thing to do for these lands and the communities
around them. I have done my homework. My interpretation leads me to this
position. I also understand that someone else could land in a different place,
and that it is their right to do so. If a common ground is to be found, it will
be found in the arena of respect and open dialogue, listening and sharing. That
is the bedrock of democracy, being a good neighbor, and being a patriot.I trust that the PEOPLE of UT will accomplish this.
10/8/16...The DN told readers trump was evil.Yesterday...The DN celebrated trump's dismemberment of 2
National Monuments.So if the DN went from trump is evil to a trump
celebration...Will the DN go from trump celebration to trump is
evil... again...?Quien sabe?
I find it interesting that you challenge a private citizen for suggesting that
Utah’s Congressional delegation are ‘wackos’ or
‘evil’ when our president uses smoker terminology to describe those
he disagrees with almost every time he speaks. Has the DN Editorial staff
written similar criticisms of him and his statements?Above all other
individuals in this country, the President, and right behind him, those serving
in Congress, should be saying and doing things that bring us together rather
than splitting us apart. So when a private citizen makes those kind of remarks
it seems they are just following the example of those in leadership positions.
Wake me up when the D-News editorial board calls out Trump for one of his
infinite number of personal insults. The D-News gives that guy a free ride.
Apparently some commentors dont listen to the Pres. Instead just jump on the
hate train.Yes, Bears Ears should be preserved, and it has. Trump
made a compromise, there are private land owners that lost use of their own land
because of govt over reach by the Oblama admin. Simply put, the designated land
for the momument was too large and went far beyond the legal requirements of the
antiquities act which clearly states the designated area should be as small as
possible. Trump made a decision that forced a compromise between
both sides whether or not each side likes it there needs to be give and take in
"fairness to all" - isn't that the hallmark statement for all
liberals? Its funny libs dont live by the montra that they so
staunchly claim - Hypocracy!Also keep in mind that States rights are
a big deal especially for those that live in Utah, for once we have a president
that acknowledges the importance of states rights, the fed govt screws up
everything they get involved with - look at our health care system for
example.Leave it to the states to decide how to handle their own
Our elected leaders are on a sugar high right now but it won't last and
they'll be left with a bad hangover. Stop for a moment and look at the
situation rationally, from a legal perspective. If the courts actually upheld
Trump's actions, then the next Democratic President can simply reinstall
the boundaries by use of the Antiquities Act. More chaos ensues. Obama asked
Rob Bishop to find a congressional solution 4 years prior to the designation.
He failed. Legal experts say Trump will lose because there is no law granted
by Congress to rescind or alter a Monument.
What Chouinard misses is... the Antiquities Act is intended to protect
antiquities (articles of scientific or historical value). Not meant as
environmentalist's tool to fence off millions of acres of land. It's
intended as emergency protection for small areas of scientific or historical
value discovered during a President's term (that can't wait for
action from Congress).AA's been mis-used by politicians with
environmental concerns recently.I like nature. But the AA was not
passed to protect nature. It was passed to give President emergency powers to
protect artifacts/antiquities discovered before they are destroyed.We have "Wilderness" designation. National Forests. And National
Parks. National Monuments, BLM protection. And State and local special
preservation areas to protect nature. That's not what AA is for.Chouinard's concern and passion are respectable. But some of their
methods (hijacking AA, threatening people, name-calling, insulting people who
disagree)... is not.You attract more people with honey than vinegar.
Yesterdays protesters turned me off to their cause a little with their constant
use of profanity and insults and offensive language.
The Bears Ears was always public land administered by the Bureau of Land
Management. It will continue to be. A national monument restricts potential uses
of public land by the public. Any significant change in land use will have to
undergo a public planning process and environmental impact study. Any special
Native American interests will be protected under the NHPA. But the US Court of
Appeals for the 9th Circuit ruled that Tribal claims of religious significance
for mountains and valleys do not control use of public lands. After all, the
Navajo graze cattle on the sacred San Francisco peaks in Arizona.
The Native Americas who were there first wanted those monuments.Every poll in Utah showed that MOST Utahns wanted the monuments left as is.Every poll showed that MOST Americans wanted the monuments left as
is....When politicians pick Corporate, Political, or select special
interest groups over the those they are elected to 'represent', then
YES! - that is evil.
DN, you did a good job of explaining the problem. And many of the ensuing
comments also do a good job of illustrating the problem. Refusal to acknowledge
the merits of "the other side of the issue.""Can't
we all just get along?"- Rodney King, 20th-century philosopherI'm confused, though.Will Patagonia quit selling their
merchandise in Utah? And if we disagree with Yvon Chouinard, should we boycott
the company? (Doesn't matter much to me personally... I can't afford
that fancy stuff!)
While the jury is still out on patently evil. I don't believe for a minute
any of them have any consideration for the citizens of Utah especially if the
citizens desires and interests conflict with those of their major donors, super
As long as our Congressional delegation keeps lying about economics (these tax
cuts are for the middle class, tax cuts pay for themselves, adding $1 trillion
to the debt doesn't matter, and increasing productivity through investment
will increase wages), I will maintain that our representatives are evil, perhaps
unknowingly so, but if so, they should get better information. Personally, I
find it difficult to believe that they do not know that they are telling
whoppers in an attempt to sell gullible voters on their tax bonus to the
If you don't see this as a incremental step towards state control and
subsequent sale of public to the extraction industry you are naive or
haven't been paying attention.
How do we make peace with a Republican like Orrin Hatch who says Donald Trump is
one of the best President's he's worked with? And how do we make peace
with Donald Trump when he advocates for a man like Roy Moore who has a history
of disregarding the law and now we have good reason to believe he molested young
girls? How do we make peace with Donald Trump who has lied more than 1,000 times
his first year in office? And how do we make peace with the Republicans in
Congress who passed a brutally dishonest tax plan that will punish people who
work for a lving? And while it may seem to some that Clinton and Obama
overreached when they designated monuments, they did so in a way the protects
those lands for future generations. Trump's unilateral act will make those
lands subject to destruction that can never be undone. What level of greed and
destruction qualifies as evil? If anything, it is the failure of moral
leadership by the Deseret News to call out the horror of the modern Republican
Party that threatens America.
He said IT'S evil, not THEY'RE evil. Semantics aside,
they're not evil. Short sighted, foolish, self interested, beholden (not to
us), partisan, you name it. But not evil.
Patagonia is correct in its assumptions and statement!
Only 5% of Utah is arable. That you can grow crops upon. That means 95% of the
state is basically uninhabited.
All liberal progressives: When I hear all the tirades against Trump I am
compelled to ask them if I feel Obama was on a consistent path toward Socialism
and I think he is evil for doing so, that his policies were 'irrational,
abusive, debasing, and hypocritical', do I have the right to tell all of
you to 'promote rational discourse' about Trump, rather than
'mudslinging'? It makes you wonder about a company that panders to
a bunch of rich kids and owes there very existence to the concept of
entrepeneurship and profit, both of which Obama despised, while Trump, at
minimum, supports. Irony abounds. If Patogonia wants to actually live up to
its espoused policy of hatred toward profit, they ought to give all their
profits to the poor and spend their time cleaning up the environment, rather
than taking advantage of the workers that make their products and then selling
them at a high profit to enrich themselves. Irony abounds.
Patagonia cares about the botton line. End of story.
"Such charged rhetoric is unhelpful in finding the proper balance regarding
public lands in Utah and throughout the West."Really? Where was
the criticism from the D-News when Bishop, Lyman, Noel, etc. were railing
against Obama and the "evil federal government"? Utah politicians are
driven by rhetoric. It's what fires up their base and gets them reelected.
Monument opponents are all about their own monetary gain or supporting those who
want to gain off the public's lands. What does that make them. I fear
that the DesNews is all in now with the GOP.
Evil, not likely. Short sighted? Yes.
No, the Utah congressional contingent is not evil. I do wonder at how they
arrive at some of the decisions. Likely the best course of action on Bears Ears
was to shrink it, but not as much as happened. What I don't
understand is how Hatch can support, even write, the tax bill that he did, and
yes this is on topic with whether Hatch is evil or not. I don't think
Hatch is evil, but I also find that he, and the rest, make decisions that put
the middle class at risk, that injure the poor, all while grossly helping the
rich to make more money. That isn't evil, but I do question their motives.
I agree with the opinions of this article; incivility causes divisiveness, not
thoughtful solutions.Let us calmly listen to one another and work on good
solution. And don't stop traffic thinking it's freedom of expression.
It's behavior that put people's safety and health at risk. Thank
I am so looking forward to taking my family camping at Bears Ears next summer to
see all the natural gas flumes light up the night sky and experience all the
fracking earthquakes! My kids will love that! We won't go near the cyanide
leaching ponds, of course, but they're so pretty, we'll take loads of
pictures!Before we head home, we'll be sure to head over to the
Kaiparowits Plateau and breathe all that super clean coal dust! Trump says it
has therapeutic qualities and he always speaks truth!Thank you Utah
politicians and thank you President Trump!
Maybe not evil, but definitely greedy and shortsighted.Love the way
they chase out renewable profit, for digging for riches just like Brigham
suggested. Yeah Patagonia is evil for wanting clean open spaces for
all?This paper seems proud that the GOP in Utah, will leave a legacy
of used up land, and filthy places for our posterity. We need more
super site clean-up's payed for by the evil feds, because Utah's all
about privatizing the profits and socializing the costs.Besides
isn't Rio Tino beautiful instead of a mountain? Utah traded the
point of the mountain for swamp land, because greedy self serving legislators,
and the Utah taxpayer will fund it.
Why such flagrant disregard for the 5 tribes that proposed Bears Ears in the
first place? The Utes and Navajos, adversaries for hundreds of
year before white settlers came here, came together to propose 1.9 million acres
for Bears Ears. (It was *their* idea, not Obama's.) Are
these tribes nothing more than collateral damage in the revenge punch from
Utahns to Obama?It's disgraceful. On the same level as Trump
taking the opportunity to use the "Pocahontas" slur against another
political enemy *during* a ceremony to honor the Navajo Code Talkers... in front
the Andrew Jackson statue, the man responsible for the "Trail of Tears"
eviction of Native Americans from their homelands in North Carolina all the way
out to Oklahoma.(Many Navajo fled to Bears Ears to avoid their own
"Trail of Tears" when they were going to also be evicted.)"In your face!"The Native American tribes who proposed
Bears Ears to Obama are nothing more than footnotes in the Utah victory over
Obama.End the charade - maybe the Ute tribe should push to change
the state name to "Deseret", what the white settlers wanted in the first
The photo says it all, American fascism in full flower, aided and abetted by
I fully agree, DNews. Let's promote rational discourse that doesn't
de-humanize everyone we disagree with. And let's start with the primary
source of that irrational, abusive discourse, our Tweeting, debasing
Dehumanizer-in-Chief. Until the far right faction that supports this
man purely for political reasons, wakes up and realizes you can't preach
one set of values with a leader who doesn't practice them, we are stuck in
this hateful, mudslinging climate. And I say the same for liberal politicians
who say they are Feminists while abusing women. Hypocrisy kills your cause -
whichever side you are on.