Sharrona posted:=Because it is precisely contrary to common(Mormon)
thinking today. We tend to=think that Scripture is confirmed by
experience. Peter says, "No, experience is=confirmed by
Scripture."Then if one cannot confirm Scripture by experience,
how CAN one confirm Scripture?One response, I guess, might be that
Scripture DOESN'T NEED confirmation. But why wouldn't Scripture need
confirmation? Shouldn't we know that God wants us to treat a certain book
as His Word before we treat it as His word?
"The LDS Church says the way to find out whether God inspired it is to
simply ask God if God inspired it. Are there methods of finding out if God
inspired some other groups (like Islam, Scientology, etc.) that make more sense
than that?"Kevin, Let me just suggest that you look up
“KevinSim ."ask God if God inspired it"“The Holy
Spirit Bears witness of Jesus and that Jesus sends the Holy Spirit (John 15:26).
The Jesus of the Bible will send the Holy Spirit. If you don't have the
right Jesus they can't have the true Holy Spirit, and your testimony is
invalid. E.g John 1:1,14 God becomes man not man becomes God. That is,
when we are in the presence of God, we are humbled and become most aware of
ourselves as creatures. This is the opposite of Satan's original
temptation, "You shall be as gods.In 2 Peter 1:16-21. He is
speaking of his experience on the Mount of transfiguration where he saw and
heard the testimony of God the Father to the majesty of Jesus Christ. Yet Peter
does not leave us to trust his experience; he rather points us to Something
"more sure" (verse 19). Scripture, he says, is given by God (verses
19-21), and so it is much more reliable than experience! Because it
is precisely contrary to common(Mormon) thinking today. We tend to think that
Scripture is confirmed by experience. Peter says, "No, experience is
confirmed by Scripture."
JoeBlow posted:=The point being is that Religion and belief are not
about "credible". You know=your religion is the correct one, just
like everyone else knows that theirs is="the one".JB,
you may have a point about one's belief that there exists a God. People
have argued at length over whether or not it's credible to believe in a
God, and I don't have a lot invested in such arguments. But if we go on the
assumption that there is a God, then religion very much should be about which
viewpoint is most credible in its reasoning that it represents the will of God.
The LDS Church says the way to find out whether God inspired it is to simply ask
God if God inspired it. Are there methods of finding out if God inspired some
other groups (like Islam, Scientology, etc.) that make more sense than that?
Kevin writes "If so, why do you find them more credible?"I
never said any one was any more or less credible than the other.The
point being is that Religion and belief are not about "credible". You
know your religion is the correct one, just like everyone else knows that theirs
is "the one".
JoeBlow posted:=If Joseph Smith and the BOM bring you peace in your
life, great for you.==Many will tell you that they know the true
wisdom is in the Koran. Others know=it is in the Torah. Still other know
it came from L Ron Hubbard. This could be=a very very long list.JoeBlow, do you find Mohammed's explanation for why we should believe the
Koran speaks for God more credible than Joseph Smith's? Or any Jew's
explanation for the Torah? Or L Ron Hubbard's explanation of the
Scientological books? Or any promoter of any of the other books in that long
list? If so, why do you find them more credible?
Asdfghjk posted:=Feel free to go proselytize yours, but remember you
are only right in your=mind, don't project it on others.My entire goal in proselyting, if it can be called that, is to get the other
person to ask God a question, ready to base her/his life on whatever answer God
provides. Once that person has done that and has gotten an answer, then my work
is done, regardless of what answer God gives her/him.
RE: soutnativeIt's perfectly within your prerogative to laugh
at us "anti-posters". The feeling can go both ways as we sometimes
chuckle at the pro-posters. We should in all honesty do neither as the beliefs
and opinions of others shouldn't be ridiculed. In this environment of Utah
you will find vast numbers of devout and a vast number of "apostates".
Yes, many of us apostates do think Joseph did those things for fame, fortune,
and other reasons not appropriate here. Right or wrong, we base it on his
history and his criminal and civil record. We differ in if it was illegally
motivated religious persecution or just criminal persecution. Many viewed the
church as a version of Islam and did rebel against that.I can no
more prove I'm right then you can prove you are right, that's why it
is faith. I can only speak for me, and for me, outside the church things are
great despite the admonition I was given. Scripture has many answers for my
happiness if you prescribe to them, but I'm happy. As was mentioned before
people find truth in all sorts of books, people, and religions. Feel free to go
proselytize yours, but remember you are only right in your mind, don't
project it on others.
@strom "...Readers will find that of this event nothing was written or
talked about for 2 years after it supposedly took place."Here is
a little fact that people tend to forget, especially if they are bashing the LDS
church...NONE of the four gospels in the New Testaments came from
original transcripts. They came from Greek copies made many years after they
were written.In fact, many parts of the New Testament books are from
originals transcripts.So I am not sure what your point is...
@CMTMI still don't get the point your're trying to make with the
Oath? People who hated Joseph Smith swore to destroy him and were former members
of the church. That's a known fact. Why are you so insistent on a non
debated fact?Of course they quoted the bible of their day. Using the
language of their day. None of that changes the fact that language changes to
reflect usage. If for the previous 800 years Elohim had been used exclusively to
refer to a singular god when referencing the Hebrew religion of course they
would consider it singular! That doesn't change the possibility of it
previously having indicated a pantheon prior to their reformation after the
rule of Ahaz. The Semitic religion was not always strictly monotheistic. Or at
least it recognized the gods of other peoples as existing, though inferior to
RE: bass679. “a language developed centuries before"?Jesus and /the Apostles, quoted the Bible of their day, The Septuagint.Let me try another approach. There are five main forms or sects of
Judaism . They are Orthodox, Conservative, Reformed, Reconstructionist, and
Humanistic. A short list of the traditional beliefs of Judaism would include
God is the creator of all that exists; He is one, incorporeal (without a body).
E.g..,The Lord fills the immensity of space. What saith the
Psalmist? [Psalm 139:7-10] “Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? Or whither
I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I
make my bed in hell, behold thou art there..” . (JoD V 1. P 49-50),
God’s Omnipresence: 1Tim 6:16. He alone is immortal and dwells
in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him[God the Father], nor can
anyone see Him. RE: Oath. “You solemnly swear before God and
all holy angels ad these your brethren by whom you are surrounded ,that you that
you will give your life, your liberty, your influence your all for the
destruction of Joseph Smith and his part, so help you God!” Mormon High
Council. Millennial Star. In 1884
re soutahnative on 5/16"You anti-posters in here make me laugh.
Js was driven, persecuted his entire life. ..." No cognitive
bias here? Seriously, why was Joe always demonized, hunted, etc...? Could it
have been what & how he did what he did?
@CMTMReposing the snippet doesn't actually constitute making an
argument for your case. The case of Hezekiah forbidding the worship of other
gods in the temple and cleaning it out anre found in 2 Chronicles if you're
unfamiliar with Hezekiah's reforms. By the time of Jesus the Jews had been
strict monotheists for over 700 years. It should come as no surprise that by
that time everyone would associate God with the only God. but you're
conflating Jesus time with a language developed centuries before. Re: Mormons being part of the mob that killed Joseph, yes we know. I
don't get what point you're trying to make by agreeing with me and
with Joseph Smith himself. this is the problem with copy/pasting snippets
instead of actually entering into a discussion.
” Hebrews were not strict monotheists until the reign
of King Hezekiah”. They S/B: The *LORD our God=(Elohim) is
one=(*echad )LORD: (Deut 6:4). *Yhovah = "the existing One" A. the
proper name of the one true God of Israel. E.g
, The stick of
Judah, and make them one=[*echad) stick. (Ezek 37:19) verse 22, explains the
coming together of two nations, Judah and Israel,” In the very
beginning the bible shows there is a plurality of Gods. Beyond the power of
refutation”.(Hof C v. 6 p.476) JS did not rad Greek Genesis 1:1 Greek
LXX In the beginning God (*o Theos, Grk. 2316). Clearly God. *Nominative
singular article.In Mt 22:32 Jesus quotes Ex 3:6, “I am the
God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” In John 8:58,
“(Jesus)”.., before Abraham was, I Am(Ego Eimi).” The Jews
clearly understood Jesus to be calling Himself God because they took up stones
to stone Him for committing blasphemy in equating Himself with God. ”RE: Many important Mormons wanted to by taking an *Oath to kill him. Do
to his many marriages/Adultery. (The Oath upon request)
@CMTMYour post has literally nothing to do with what I wrote. And since
you copy and paste that same snippet regularly it's also nothing new. Have
you, perhaps, thought that by engaging in actual dialog you might be more
effective at getting your point across?Regardless, it's not new
information that there were Mormons or former Mormons in the mob that killed
Joseph Smith. Additionally, the Hebrews were not strict monotheists until the
reign of King Hezekiah. It is not unreasonable that Elohim is used to mean more
than one god, particularly before Hezekiah's reign. Your statement
basically boils down to, "even though Elohim is plural it indicates a
singular entity except in cases where it does not".
A remarkable fact is that most of the most significant revelatory experiences
Joseph Smith had were shared with other witnesses. Oliver Cowdery was with him
when they received the priesthood from John the Baptist, Peter, James, and John,
Moses and Elijah. Oliver, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris shared the vision of
Moroni and the golden plates. Sydney Rigdon shared the vision in D&C 76.
You anti-posters in here make me laugh. Js was driven, persecuted his entire
life. Spending a huge amount of his life just trying to keep from being killed,
until they finally did. A very young man almost penniless that restored the
priesthood of God and suffered all the harm and persecutions that horrible men
could perpetrate. At the same time accomplishing what would take ten ordinary
men there lifetimes to do. And for what? Money? Fame? Why should he have
done this? And you set on your computer and try to rationalize a supposed 2
year gap in information.
The Kirtland era is a fascinating period of Church history. Recently, I've
enjoyed learning that the current owners of the Kirtland Temple - the Community
of Christ (formerly RLDS) - came to own it after a series of conveyances by
others who purchased it from judgment creditors of the Church. The judgment
creditors initially took possession of the temple in order to satisfy
restitution orders by the courts after Joseph Smith was convicted of banking
fraud in Kirtland. What a fascinating history.
@strom "...Readers will find that of this event nothing was written or
talked about for 2 years after it supposedly took place."While I
doubt you will accept any answer due to the fact that your goal in posting here
has been, at best, angst against LDS culture, I believe that the experience was
so sacred and profound to Joseph that words to describe it were inadequate.The scriptures contain many accounts where individuals saw and beheld
things wherein they said that they heard and saw unspeakable things that, even
if lawful to write, could not be written.I know a man who had a
profound near death experience. It changed his life so completely that he is a
different person than he was before. But he never talked about it, even with his
family, for several years after the event; although they (his family) noticed
how radically he had changed for the better.Does it bother me that
Joseph didn't speak or write of his experience for a couple of years? Not
at all.Some day you may need need to defend or explain yourself
using facts and information you chose not to divulge or talk about previously.
Using your logic you should remain silent.
Was olive Cowdery also the witness that never denied his testimony of the James
Strang plates and how they were an ancient record of the native people in North
America?So did the church hold onto these documents first in order
to vet them?
In what DesNews censors apparently thought 'overly speculative' that I
wrote that if Oliver Cowdery did not see the vision Joseph Smith claimed they
had in April 1836, he may have likely disagreed if he didn't see these
things, I apologize. That co.ment was denied.A friend of mine and I
rode 10-speed bikes from the Salt Lake Valley to Yellowstone Park and all the
way back in 1977.I don't know if I've written much about
that anywhere. But I can tell you many things of that experience even know that
happened several decades ago as clear as if they had happened yesterday.Big events we sometimes remember intricate details of even though they
happened far in the distant past.Given the turmoil of things in
Kirtland, it doesn't seem to me that the details of that important event
would be easily forgotten by Joseph Smith two or even three years.
bass679 ( H of C, 1844). “Eloheim is from the word Eloi, God is singular
number; and by adding the word heim ,it renders it Gods.” In
Hebrew the form of the word Elohim, with the ending -im, which normally
indicates a masculine plural, but construction is usually grammatically
‘SINGULAR’, when used of pagan divinities. H # 430 Strong’s
.RE: martyred. The death of JS I remember what Joseph said, a short
time before he was slain in one of the last sermons I ever heard him preach.
Said he, “Men are here today who are seeking my blood, and they are those
who have held the*[Mormon} Priesthood and have received their washings and
anointing’s; men who have received their endowments.”I saw
the faces of those men at that time, and they had a hand in slaying the Prophet
. (JoD v 4 p 149). . when you feel like killing me for so doing,
as some of the people did who called themselves brethren in the days of Joseph
Smith, look out for yourselves, for ‘false brethren’ were the cause
of Joseph's death, and I am not a very righteous man”.(JoD v 3
p.49.) Whether Mormons killed JS or not is unimportant many
important Mormons wanted to by taking an oath to kill him..
If Joseph Smith and the BOM bring you peace in your life, great for you.Many will tell you that they know the true wisdom is in the Koran.
Others know it is in the Torah. Still other know it came from L Ron Hubbard.
This could be a very very long list.The validity of your source
doesn't really matter. If you think it is the truth, If you think it is
the word from above, If you think it has the answers, I suggest that you live
it. Just know that many others have a different truth.Perception is your reality.
I like reading stuff like this about Joseph Smith. I think sometimes we forget
that he and our other leaders were human. Even reading Joseph Smith's own
words you see such changes between the young man who tried to make money
treasure hunting and the man who was martyred in Carthage. To Quote
president McKay, "The purpose of the gospel is
to make bad men good
and good men better." This applies to the Prophet just as much as to each of
RE: ssev. From the school of prophets at Kirtland Ohio: Lectures On Faith - Q.
What is the Father? A. He is a personage of glory and of power. (5:2.)Q. What is
the Son? A. First, he is a personage of tabernacle. (5:2.) The
Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit, pp 53-55. The LDS teach The Holy Ghost is a
separate God from the Father and Son, different from the Holy Spirit Holy Ghost
is a person, Holy Spirit is influence from the Father and not personal. Bible
same Greek word used or Holy Ghost and Hoy Spirit. (1 Cor 3:16 &6:19)
Mormons do not read Greek E.g
,@ JS,” In the very
beginning the bible shows there is a plurality of Gods. Beyond the power of
refutation”.(Hof C v. 6 p.476) Wrong, Genesis 1:1 Greek LXX In the
beginning God (*o Theos, Grk. 2316). Clearly God. *Nominative singular
article.RE: Cake “That seer
his name shall be called
Joseph and it shall be after the name of his father”. ( Genesis 50:33
JST),JS adds prophecy about himself to his Inspired Version. But
NOT found in Greek Septuagint(Apostles Bible) or dead sea scrolls..
Joseph Smith was a man of understanding and wisdom. He understood the nature of
God in its purest form. He understood the vital importance of obedience to the
will of God. He understood the opposition and persecution to the will of God.
Joseph understood the weight of responsibility entrusted to him, to translate
scripture through perfect inspiration, revelation and divine visitation. He
understood the suffering and torment inflicted by those who did not and could
not understand. Joseph Smith was a man of Faith with a clear
understanding of right and wrong, good and bad. He understood the consequences
of his decisions.The First Vision, the translation of the Book of
Mormon, the revelations, heavenly visitations, the organisation of Jesus Christ
church, the restoration of the Holy Priesthood are contained in a capsule phase
of perfection. You are free to choose to find these truths.
Dilligent Dave.."The four Gospels found in the New Testament are believed by
scholars to not have been written until many years, possibly even many decades
after they happened.So What? Does that make them any less real? Does
that put into question what was written?"Of course it puts into
question the actual history of the books. The earliest any of the books was
written was 50 AD, and some possibly as late as 130 AD. What is of
equal concern for the veracity of the New Testament is the fact that the Jesus
stories recorded in Bible are the only records of the man, in an era of rich
recorded history. Here's supposedly a man going around in Roman
controlled territory raising the dead, feeding thousands from a few, healing the
sick etc. and no one makes a record of it. There's plenty of
information about wandering "saviors" just not the biblical savior. So believe if you will but don't be fooled you are believing in a
myth rich character, of which there is no contemporary account, only the
writings of believers 50 to 100 years later.
There were no greater mortal men than the Prophet Joseph Smith and his brother,
Hyrum:"Joseph Smith ... sealed his mission and his works with
his own blood; and so has his brother Hyrum. In life they were not divided, and
in death they were not separated! ... The testators are now dead, and their
testament is in force. ... [T]heir names will be classed among the martyrs of
religion; and ... the Book of Mormon, and this book of Doctrine and Covenants of
the church, cost the best blood of the nineteenth century to bring them forth
for the salvation of a ruined world . ... They lived for glory; they died for
glory; and glory is their eternal reward. From age to age shall their names go
down to posterity as gems for the sanctified. [T]heir innocent blood, with the
innocent blood of all the martyrs under the altar that John saw, will cry unto
the Lord of Hosts till he avenges that blood on the earth." (See D&C
135; see also Without Disclosing My True Identity—The Authorized and
Official Biography of the Mormon Prophet, Joseph Smith, Jr.)
The fact that Oliver Cowdery never once in his life denied the events, even his
his most opposing years offers great credibility to the story. If anyone had a
reason to 'expose a fraud', Oliver did. But instead, he not only
never denied these events, he stood up for them to his dying day. And his
return to the church also speaks volumes as to the accuracy of these things.Those opposed to the church are quick to use Oliver in their narrative
because he left, but they conveniently leave out the entire story of
Oliver's life. He was a personal witness to so many things. His testimony
stands strong today in my mind.
Joseph was an amazing man, and prophet. The full history shows that
2 years is nothing compared to how long it took to write some events of the
American Revolution. Always those that try to make something out of nothing.
@diligent dave,To answer your question. Yes, it makes all the
difference in the world when something is written. If one writes something after
the fact it is easy to shape it to ones wishes. If one writes something before
the fact it is easy to prove them true or false. If someone wish to write the
prophesies of god Thor today they can improvise many kinds of prophesies that
Thor made that are now realities. Try it, you can tell people that you
prophesied ten years ago where you would be sleeping today. No one can prove
you wrong, and some will even believe you.
So what?Believers believe and non believers don't.
Diligent," The four Gospels found in the New Testament are
believed by scholars to not have been written until many years, possibly even
many decades after they happened.So What? Does that make them any
less real? Does that put into question what was written?"No, and
yes.The larger problem is Joseph Smith did not live 2000 years ago.
He seems to have presented these new revelations years after the
fact and when his leadership was being questioned.This was
supposedly the crowning event of early Mormonism, establishing its authoritative
prominence , and no one wrote or talked about it for 2 years?
The four Gospels found in the New Testament are believed by scholars to not have
been written until many years, possibly even many decades after they
happened.So What? Does that make them any less real? Does that put
into question what was written?
"A week later, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery saw a vision of Jesus Christ
and received visitations from ancient Biblical prophets."Is
there anything recorded about this event which Richard Bushman was unaware of
while writing Rough Stone Rolling?Readers will find that of this
event nothing was written or talked about for 2 years after it supposedly took