BYU's Lamb explains how Sitake is tweaking 'ethos' of program to avoid repeat of 2017

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  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 17, 2018 8:27 a.m.

    Cougsndawgs:

    I changed nothing in that discussion about Edwards and Bosco. You just made that up. How frantic and emotional of you. And how doubly frantic and emotional of you to try to change the subject. You only admitted your deception after having already been caught. Your false claim came in on Feb. 13th at 3:55 p.m. I called you out on it less than an hour later at 4:43 -- which for the record, did NOT show Sec. 3.8 as you'd claimed in your backpedal. And since Sec. 3.8 said nothing about "9/12/17" (it said "[11]"), and you'd specifically cited "9/12/17", then that means that you had indeed tried to pull a fast one. Only after my pointing out that it did not say what you'd claimed it said did you try to circle back, and act like Sec. 3.8 was what you were talking about all along. Only the time stamp didn't wash. You'd claimed that you'd looked at Sec. 3.8 at 5:00, but when I'd looked -- at 6:03 -- Sec. 3.8 DIDN'T say what you'd said it said. So then you circled back to Wikipedia, and fraudulently changed it to back your claim up.

    So you lied, then you lied again, then you circled back and changed the evidence. Disgusting. Shame on you.

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Feb. 16, 2018 1:26 p.m.

    One last thing: I changed the Wiki page list only to show how easy it was to do after it had been changed from the list I was looking at on 2/13 @ 3:30pm (probably by NV but I can't prove that so I refuse to call anyone a liar when I have no proof, like "others" do). I DID NOT change it to prove I was right (again another misrepresentation to desperately try and prove I'm lying). Again, anyone can look through this thread and see what I'm talking about.

    That is all...I'm not responding to anymore accusations and disparaging remarks because I can sleep well at night knowing I haven't lied and owned the mistake I made by referencing the pdf when I believed it would say what the Wikipedia page SAID...not what it said after "someone" changed it.

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Feb. 16, 2018 1:02 p.m.

    NV:
    "So no, NV did not show a 'PAC 12 bowl that picked Utah over another PAC 12 team with a better record.'.....in case NV wants to dispute the above selection order, it comes from the Pac12 Football press release dated 9-12-17."

    I already owned my mistake in referencing the press release believing that the Wiki page referencing it would have the accurate order, which it didn't. Anyone reading this thread can see that I've owned that mistake on numerous occasions.

    Strawman definition: "an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument".

    You couldn't defend your "real argument" that Bosco or Edwards ever said "BYU wasn't the best in 84" so you CHANGED your argument to "wouldn't be ranked #1 in today's system", which was easy to defend when you saw in your search that they didn't say what you said they did. That is the very definition of a strawman, as anyone who reads that thread can easily attest.

    The proof has been given to anyone else reading any of this thread or the UCF thread that I'm not lying about my mistake or any of it. THEY can decide and request an apology if they think I am. WE'RE done.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 16, 2018 10:38 a.m.

    Cougsndawgs:

    "I apologize to others for hijacking this thread."

    THAT's what you're apologizing for? Not for lying??? It's the LYING part where you disrespected all readers here. THAT's what you should be apologizing for. It's already out there -- you'd already been PROVEN to have lied, so admitting your guilt won't be the part wherein you'd have been exposed. You're already exposed. You lied. Shame on you! You owe us all an apology.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 16, 2018 9:48 a.m.

    Cougsndawgs:

    "I'm talking about the article from Brad Rock about UCF wherein you used an obvious straw man."

    Except that wasn't a straw man. You clearly have no idea what a "straw man" is. You've just heard me saying it, and you've wanted to say it back to me. How frantic and emotional of you.

    As for everybody else, Cougsndawgs IS trying to backpedal. For starters, he specifically reference the article dated 9-12-17. See for yourself in his comment back on Feb. 13th, at 3:55 p.m....

    "So no, NV did not show a 'PAC 12 bowl that picked Utah over another PAC 12 team with a better record.'.....in case NV wants to dispute the above selection order, it comes from the Pac12 Football press release dated 9-12-17."

    That report he'd cited was referenced "[11]" under that page's 3.8 section, right after the "2017" date. If you clicked that "[11]", it takes to an article at the bottom of the page that is in pdf form, and cannot be changed. On pg. 4, you will see that it did NOT list the FF bowl behind the Sun. He made that up. He lied. He even ADMITS to circling back later and changing the Wiki page order in Sec. 3.8 to validate himself. That's how disingenuous he really is!

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Feb. 15, 2018 2:51 p.m.

    I apologize to others for hijacking this thread. I've said my piece and you have the resources to see for yourself so I'll leave it at that. I'm done rolling in the mud. I'm taking london's advice and moving on to more meaningful things.

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Feb. 15, 2018 2:31 p.m.

    I'm done. Anyone who wants to verify my word put Bids to College Bowl Games in your search engine. Under the Wikipedia page with the same name their will be a link (number 3 I believe) that takes you to the Order of Selection. Go to Pac12 and tell NV what you see there. I'm NOT referring the pdf which everyone knows you can't change and I already admitted to my mistake of referencing the source (pdf) without verifying that the Wikipedia page listed the order the same way the pdf source listed them.

    And you know full well the UCF article we were also arguing on but here's the title in case you "forgot": "Brad Rock: Dear Central Florida: Get in line; Utah doesn't have a national championship, either". Now people can go there and see the strawman argument you tried to pull there as well (which you fully remember and are pretending ignorance here). There now, anyone can look at the references above and see just who is being deceitful and who isn't.

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Feb. 15, 2018 2:16 p.m.

    Pac-12 Conference
    2017

    #1 College Football Playoff. Automatic berth to one of the New Year's Six bowl games, traditionally the Rose Bowl if a slot is available.
    #2 The Alamo Bowl versus Big 12.
    #3 The Holiday Bowl versus Big Ten.
    #4 The Sun Bowl versus ACC.
    #5 The Las Vegas Bowl versus Mountain West.
    #6 The Cactus Bowl versus Big 12 #6
    #7 The Foster Farms Bowl versus Big Ten.

    =Taken directly from the Wikipedia page under Bids to College Bowl Games just as I said. If you can't read it, I can't help you. And stop referencing the pdf...I already said I took Wiki at their word which was my mistake rather than checking that the pdf reflected what it says above on the Wikipedia page.

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Feb. 15, 2018 2:12 p.m.

    NV:
    "Another backpedal? Where did I say anything about UCF here? You just made that up. Another lie".

    I'm talking about the article from Brad Rock about UCF wherein you used an obvious straw man. You know exactly what I'm talking about...yet somehow now you have selective amnesia.

    For the last time it's NOT the pdf I was looking at on Wiki it was the list that is there right NOW under the search I described below. I referenced the off making the mistake of believing that Wiki' s list would reflect the pdf they referenced. I DID change it and it SAYS Sum #4 and Foster #7 right now. Stop pretending you don't see it. And I'M the dishonest one. Again put Bids to College Bowl Games in search engine. Click on it and then click on Order of selection on the Wiki page. Go to Pac12 and look at the order! And anyone else follow those instructions and tell NV what you see.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 15, 2018 10:49 a.m.

    Cougsndawgs:

    Another backpedal? Where did I say anything about UCF here? You just made that up. Another lie. And that's not an "ad hominem" attack. It's a "fact". If that pdf file said what you'd said it said yesterday, then why don't you go back and change it to prove me wrong?

    Answer: Because you CAN'T. It's a pdf file. It can't be changed!

    You got busted lying, so what do you do?

    Answer: Point the finger at me. That is so typical of Y fans.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 15, 2018 10:41 a.m.

    Cougsndawgs:

    Another backpedal? Where did I say anything about UCF here? You just made that up. Another lie. And that's not an "ad hominem" attack. It's a "fact". If that pdf file said what you'd said it said yesterday, then why don't you go back and change it to prove me wrong?

    Answer: Because you CAN'T. It's a pdf file. It can't be changed!

    You got busted lying, so what do you do?

    Answer: Point the finger at me. That is so typical of Y fans.

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Feb. 14, 2018 7:37 p.m.

    The list WAS what I said it was yesterday. It WAS changed...how or by whom, I don't know. I took ownership of mistakenly believing the Wikipedia list would match the list on the press release it referenced. It didn't, and I corrected myself after digging further. That is not lying...nowhere in my defense have I lied, ANYWHERE.

    Ad hominem attacks to prove a point are not only a logical fallacy they're not in good taste. The only way one could logically call me a liar is if they were me looking at the wikipedia list at 3:30pm yesterday, or they were the individual who changed the list. If said person fits neither description they can't logically call me a liar as they have no knowledge of the event in question (and I'm NOT a liar...again the Wikipedia list was as I said it was).

    The strawman was in reference to another conversation about UCF, where a strawman was used to try and desperately win an argument. I do know what it is but that conversation leads me to believe "others" don't.

  • london_josh lincoln, CA
    Feb. 14, 2018 7:36 p.m.

    You can't wrestle a pig in the pig pen without also getting dirty, and that comment is directed at more than one person.

    It's a comment page about football on Valentines day - people, go do something creative or fun with your life!

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Feb. 14, 2018 6:49 p.m.

    NV:
    It WAS just as I said it was at 3:30pm yesterday. I made the mistake of thinking the list on Wikipedia would be exactly as it was on the press release THEY referenced. It obviously wasn't and I owned that mistake. NOWHERE in all of that am I lying. Again, I didn't pull #4 and #7 out of a hat...it WAS there in black and white (not the press release it referenced and I mistakenly took to exhibit what the wiki list said).

    You attacking my character is called an ad hominem fallacy. See, I know what that is along with the strawman arguments you've tried to pull in the past like in our UCF argument. The only way you can logically call me a liar is if you were me looking at the list at 3:30pm yesterday or if you changed the list. If you are neither than you can't logically call me a liar. It DID list it the way I said it yesterday...and I can rest easy at night KNOWING that to be the case regardless of all the name-calling, and derogatory attacks from you. Why or how it was changed on Wiki I have no idea...well I do but I'll leave it there because I want this posted and not censored like my other rebuttals before it.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 14, 2018 5:25 p.m.

    Cougsndawgs:

    "And you probably DID change it trying to make me look bad. I'm done here."

    I don't NEED to make you look bad! You're doing a bang up job of that all on your own!

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 14, 2018 4:45 p.m.

    Cougsndawgs:

    I went back to Wikipedia, and it's STILL a pdf file that can't be changed. All you did was try to change the Wiki section 3.8, but the link clearly marked "[11]" STILL takes you down to the bottom of the page, and that line STILL lists the Pac-12's bowl selection order as (1) Rose, (2) Alamo, (3) Holiday, (4) Foster Farms, (5) Sun, (6) Las Vegas, and (7) Cactus. It's all right there on pg. 4, just like it had ALWAYS read, going all the way back to the Sept. 12, 2017 date you'd previously cited.

    And no, being nice to me doesn't whitewash your deliberate attempts to obfuscate the truth! If you behave in a disingenuous manner, you won't get any civility from me. You'll get all the scorn you deserve.

    "And you have NEVER admitted when you're wrong before...you just couldn't escape actual numbers this time so no strawman was going to work for you."

    There you go again. Making stuff up. I HAVE admitted when I've been wrong before. I'm just not wrong as frequently as YOU are. And do you even know what a "straw man" is? Because I fail to see how such a term is applicable anywhere on this page.

    If you want respect, quit lying!

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Feb. 14, 2018 4:12 p.m.

    And just so you can see how easy it is go to Bids to college bowl games and then order of selection and look at it now. Easy peasy. It WAS how it is ordered now...whether you like it or not. And you probably DID change it trying to make me look bad. I'm done here.

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Feb. 14, 2018 4:08 p.m.

    NV:
    "I'm not an indy-WACer, so I can admit when I'm wrong. It's cougar nation that refused to admit it. Just like how you're trying to convince people that at one point Wikipedia referenced information that never existed. But you don't fool me. That was a pdf page. You can't change that. I'm sure you would if you could, as you're desperately trying to save face here, but you can't! Never did it ever say what you'd said it said.

    Never!

    You were 100%, all the way WRONG! Own it!"

    Wow, so much for me trying to be friendly...what did I expect I guess. And you have NEVER admitted when you're wrong before...you just couldn't escape actual numbers this time so no strawman was going to work for you.

    Wikipedia did say the order I said. You obviously don't know anything about Wikipedia...there's an edit button next to anything that you can use to change information and have it verified. The pdf is in the reference section...that you can't change. Go into it and do it yourself so you can see how it works...if not who cares. Thanks for the friendly conversation.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 14, 2018 3:53 p.m.

    Cougsndawgs:

    I'm not an indy-WACer, so I can admit when I'm wrong. It's cougar nation that refused to admit it. Just like how you're trying to convince people that at one point Wikipedia referenced information that never existed. But you don't fool me. That was a pdf page. You can't change that. I'm sure you would if you could, as you're desperately trying to save face here, but you can't! Never did it ever say what you'd said it said.

    Never!

    You were 100%, all the way WRONG! Own it!

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Feb. 14, 2018 3:33 p.m.

    NV:
    "I admit the typo by misplacing Stanford at #19 rather than #18. However, that was the ONLY error in my post".

    Wow, I admit I didn't think you'd own it...good on ya. The rest of your post I already understand...anyone who follows CFB since the BCS understands (well except some fans who shall remain nameless). As for uneducated, I didn't go to BYU and rarely questioned coaches on their choice of offense/defensive scheme, so I can't speak to that.

    I've been to RES and LES and heard a whole lot of "uneducated" at both venues...so I think it's fair to say that isn't a BYU/Utah thing but rather a CFB fan(atics) thing. "You guys" can be pretty "uneducated" as well...I remember in 2005-06 all the "uneducated" ute fans calling for Whit's head.

    Now the real question: did you change the wikipedia? lol...in good fun, not trying to poke at you just asking for real...did you hit the 'edit' button? I thought about changing it back to mess with people but decided it should probably remain factual.

  • AZUTE1 Mesa, AZ
    Feb. 14, 2018 3:24 p.m.

    “@DaysSinceBYUwon 3,000. That's over 72,000 hours. Over 4,320,000 mins.

    Let that sink in @BYUfootball”

    Go Utes!

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 14, 2018 3:08 p.m.

    Cougsndawgs:

    I admit the typo by misplacing Stanford at #19 rather than #18. However, that was the ONLY error in my post. I was NOT wrong on the "N/A(s)" for Utah and Stanford, as there IS no final CFP poll after the bowls have been played. Just like there was no final BCS poll after those bowls had been played either. That's the thing you indy-WACers never really understood! The BCS and CFP polls were designed to determine "who would play in what bowl game(s)". Not "who was the best team at the end of the season". That's why if you looked at the final CFP poll of 2016, it shows Alabama at #1...

    ...when in fact Clemson was the national champion that year!

    There's a reason why mendenmidmajor called you guys "uneducated" ya know...

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Feb. 14, 2018 2:44 p.m.

    Stanford was ranked #18...not 19...waiting for you to own your error while trying to "embarrass" people.

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Feb. 14, 2018 2:16 p.m.

    NV:
    Will you own your mistake like I did?...

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Feb. 14, 2018 1:46 p.m.

    NV:
    "Similarly, prior to the postseason, Stanford wound up ranked...

    CFP: #19
    AP: #16

    And after the postseason, Stanford wound up ranked...

    CFP: n/a
    AP: #12 (up 4 spots)"

    Nope- how embarrassing for YOU.
    Final CFP ranking for Stanford was #18, not "n/a". How disingenuous of you.

    Btw- Wikipedia DID have the Sun #4 and the Foster Farms #7 @ 3:30pm yesterday. It's since been changed. And anyone who's worked with Wiki knows that isn't hard to submit. So I WASN'T trying to hide anything...or do you think I drew #4 and #7 out of a hat?

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 14, 2018 1:14 p.m.

    DeepBlue:

    "navel [sic] vet thinks that Utah got a bowl upgrade?.....LOL!.....Consider the post season ranking results.....Stanford won their bowl by 2 points and jumped from #19 CFP to #12 Final AP.....Utah won their bowl by 2 points and dropped from #18 CFP to #21 Final AP.....Navel's definition of an upgrade is obviously moving from coach to baggage compartment."

    What a disingenuous and/or "uneducated" thing to say. Now for the facts/truth...

    Prior to the postseason, Utah ended ranked as follows...

    CFP: #19
    AP: NR (2-spots out of this poll)

    After the postseason, Utah's final ranking was as follows...

    CFP: n/a
    AP: #23 (up 4 spots)

    Similarly, prior to the postseason, Stanford wound up ranked...

    CFP: #19
    AP: #16

    And after the postseason, Stanford wound up ranked...

    CFP: n/a
    AP: #12 (up 4 spots)

    So rather than dropping 3 spots in the AP, we rose 4 -- just like Stanford. And you just got caught either lying, or exposing your ignorance as to the difference between the CFP poll, and the AP. Either way, how embarrassing for you.

  • worf McAllen, TX
    Feb. 14, 2018 12:13 p.m.

    Not matter how you spin it with this silly star system.

    The eastern part of this country has the best college football teams.

    No team in the PAC12 can compete with eastern schools no matter how many stars are given.

    Give them eight stars and it doesn't matter.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 14, 2018 7:18 a.m.

    AZUTE1:

    If our envious indy-WACey little brothers insist on challenging you as to whether or not Garett Bolles had ever been rated a 5-star recruit by Scout, you can just refer them to the article "Five-star Snow College offensive lineman Garett Bolles commits to Utah", that was published by the Desert News' own sportswriter, Ryan McDonald, back on Jan. 4, 2016, at 10:35 am.

    If they can't confirm that article as having ever been written, with all that "Google search engine" requirements that I'd just posted, then it's just a simple case of willful ignorance.

  • ND95CA Lincoln Park, IL
    Feb. 13, 2018 11:04 p.m.

    If Bolles wasn’t listed as a 5-star WHEN he signed, then he wasn’t a 5-star signee.

    It’s really quite simple.

  • AZUTE1 Mesa, AZ
    Feb. 13, 2018 7:11 p.m.

    “Garett Bolles was listed as a 4-star recruit by 247 Sports, Rivals and ESPN (JC50) when he was signed by Utah out of Snow College.”

    In no way even remotely renders the following statement from me incorrect, period—

    "Previous to the 247 takeover, Scout did in fact list Gb as a 5-Star recruit."

  • AZUTE1 Mesa, AZ
    Feb. 13, 2018 7:07 p.m.

    “Let's review.

    Stanford won their bowl by 2 points and jumped from #18 CFP to #12 AP (+6)

    Utah won their bowl by 2 points and dropped from #19 CFP to #23 AP (-4).“

    Huh?

    A school doesn’t jump from a spot in The Cfp Poll into a spot in The Ap Poll.

    What are you even talking about?

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 13, 2018 6:03 p.m.

    Cougsndawgs:

    "Take it easy...I went to wikipedia and it referenced the football release on 9/12/17. I already addressed that I found the true selection order after digging further. Chill."

    First of all, you had NOT "already addressed...the true selection order after digging further". You said the Sun selected ahead of the Foster Farms Bowl at 3:55, and the very next post you'd left was the 4:56 one I'm responding to right now.

    Second, Wikipedia didn't say that EITHER!

    There are just no depths you won't plumb in order to obscure the facts. You should just stop. You're breaking Riverton Cougar's heart.

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Feb. 13, 2018 5:00 p.m.

    Ok I addressed it but it's not posting. Anyway, I already found after digging that the order in Wikipedia was wrong...not sure why it didn't post.

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Feb. 13, 2018 4:56 p.m.

    NV:
    Take it easy...I went to wikipedia and it referenced the football release on 9/12/17. I already addressed that I found the true selection order after digging further. Chill.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 13, 2018 4:43 p.m.

    Cougsndawgs:

    "NV pulled a fast one on you.....NV's argument was that the Foster Farms Bowl took Utah and relegated Stanford to the Sun Bowl. This is where he was disingenuous when talking about selection of opponents. The Sun Bowl is the #4 pick from the Pac 12, while the Foster Farms is the #7 pick."

    On the contrary, it looks like YOU'RE the one trying to pull a fast one here. The Pac-12's bowl selection goes accordingly...

    1st: Rose
    2nd: Alamo
    3rd: Holiday
    4th: Foster Farms
    5th: Sun
    6th: Las Vegas
    7th: Cactus

    The Foster Farms Bowl picks AHEAD of the Sun, and has been doing so since 2014. So yes, Utah was selected ahead of Stanford back in 2016, thus dropping Stanford down to the Sun Bowl.

    Wow! You indy-WACers will stop at NOTHING to spread misinformation.

  • Riverton Cougar Riverton, UT
    Feb. 13, 2018 4:03 p.m.

    Oh boy, this is fun. Watching Ute "fans" get owned by facts is much more entertaining than I thought it would be!

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Feb. 13, 2018 3:55 p.m.

    Deep Blue:
    "Stanford played North Carolina (8-5) in the Sun Bowl,
    while Utah was stuck playing Indiana (6-7) in the Foster Farms Bowl?
    Yet navel vet thinks that Utah got a bowl upgrade?"

    NV pulled a fast one on you. See, the Foster Farms bowl is actually a higher payout than the Sun Bowl, it is true. However, NV's argument was that the Foster Farms Bowl took Utah and relegated Stanford to the Sun Bowl. This is where he was disingenuous when talking about selection of opponents. The Sun Bowl is the #4 pick from the Pac 12, while the Foster Farms is the #7 pick. So it is true that the Sun Bowl didn't want Utah and chose Stanford ahead of them.

    So no, NV did not show a "PAC 12 bowl that picked Utah over another PAC 12 team with a better record." Troll Police's question still goes unanswered.

    BTW, in case NV wants to dispute the above selection order, it comes from the Pac12 Football press release dated 9-12-17.

  • Snack PAC Olympus Cove, Utah
    Feb. 13, 2018 3:47 p.m.

    azute1

    Let's review.

    Stanford won their bowl by 2 points and jumped from #18 CFP to #12 AP (+6)

    Utah won their bowl by 2 points and dropped from #19 CFP to #23 AP (-4).

    A difference of 10 places.

    Quite obviously, Stanford had a much better bowl matchup than Utah.

  • AZUTE1 Mesa, AZ
    Feb. 13, 2018 3:41 p.m.

    Cfp Poll doesn’t equate to Ap/Coaches polls, Btw.

  • Just the FAX Olympus Cove, Utah
    Feb. 13, 2018 3:41 p.m.

    AZUTE1

    "Previous to the 247 takeover, Scout did in fact list Gb as a 5-Star recruit..."

    Garett Bolles was listed as a 4-star recruit by 247 Sports, Rivals and ESPN (JC50) when he was signed by Utah out of Snow College.

  • AZUTE1 Mesa, AZ
    Feb. 13, 2018 3:09 p.m.

    deepblue—

    Per your own words, we made a greater jump in # of spots forward than did Stanford.

    Per Naval_Vet’s comment—

    “Stanford ALSO ranked ahead of the Utes in the AP (#16 vs. Utah's 2-spots outside of that poll), “

    Go Utes!

  • AZUTE1 Mesa, AZ
    Feb. 13, 2018 3:01 p.m.

    “Sorry to burst your crimson bubble, but, according to 247 Sports,

    Garrett Bolles was a 4-star recruit.

    Utah hasn’t signed a single 5-star recruit in more than a decade.”

    Previous to the 247 takeover, Scout did in fact list Gb as a 5-Star recruit....This is fact.

    Go Utes!

  • Riddles in the Dark Olympus Cove, Utah
    Feb. 13, 2018 3:00 p.m.

    DeepBlue

    "Stanford won their bowl by 2 points and jumped from #19 CFP to #12 Final AP.
    Utah won their bowl by 2 points and dropped from #18 CFP to #21 Final AP."

    It was worse than that.

    Stanford won their bowl by 2 points and jumped from #18 CFP to #12 AP and #12 Coaches.
    Utah won their bowl by 2 points and dropped from #19 CFP to #23 AP and #21 Coaches.

    Similar game results; much different opponents; completely opposite results.

    Only a team that plays a pathetically weak bowl opponent would drop in the polls after winning their bowl game.

  • DeepBlue Anaheim, CA
    Feb. 13, 2018 2:37 p.m.

    Gandalph

    So, in 2016,

    Stanford played North Carolina (8-5) in the Sun Bowl,

    while Utah was stuck playing Indiana (6-7) in the Foster Farms Bowl?

    Yet navel vet thinks that Utah got a bowl upgrade?

    LOL!

    Consider the post season ranking results.

    Stanford won their bowl by 2 points and jumped from #19 CFP to #12 Final AP.
    Utah won their bowl by 2 points and dropped from #18 CFP to #21 Final AP.

    Navel's definition of an upgrade is obviously moving from coach to baggage compartment.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 13, 2018 2:27 p.m.

    Gandalph:

    There it IS! There's that "moving of the goal posts" that I fully expected you frantic and emotional indy-WACers to present in order to distract from the FACT that "TrollPolice" was WRONG! How predictable.

    Did he not say, "U can't show me a single PAC 12 bowl that picked Utah over another PAC 12 team with a better record"???

    Yep!

    And could I show him an example of one anyway???

    Yep!

    Case closed: TrollPolice was WRONG! And since he was wrong, he had no point. How frustrating and embarrassing for you both! Haha!

  • Gandalph Sandy, UT
    Feb. 13, 2018 1:44 p.m.

    navelvet

    "In 2016, Utah finished the regular season 8-4 (5-4 Pac-12), and ranked 19th in the final CFP poll.

    Stanford on the other hand finished 9-3 (6-3 Pac-12), and ranked 18th in the final CFP poll.

    Stanford ALSO ranked ahead of the Utes in the AP (#16 vs. Utah's 2-spots outside of that poll), and the Coaches (#16 vs. Utah's #23) polls.

    Yet Utah was invited to the Foster Farms Bowl, thereby dropping Stanford down to the Sun. How frantic and emotional of YOU to be denying reality."

    Yawn.

    The Foster Farms Bowl was simply looking for a little variety, since Stanford had already played in their bowl just a couple of years earlier.

    Stanford played North Carolina (8-5) in the Sun Bowl.

    Utah was stuck playing pathetically weak Indiana (6-7), a team that hasn't won a bowl game in 30 years, in the Foster Farms Bowl.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 13, 2018 12:58 p.m.

    TrollPolice:

    "Navel vet [sic].....U can’t show me a single PAC 12 bowl that picked Utah over another PAC 12 team with a better record."

    In 2016, Utah finished the regular season 8-4 (5-4 Pac-12), and ranked 19th in the final CFP poll.

    Stanford on the other hand finished 9-3 (6-3 Pac-12), and ranked 18th in the final CFP poll.

    Stanford ALSO ranked ahead of the Utes in the AP (#16 vs. Utah's 2-spots outside of that poll), and the Coaches (#16 vs. Utah's #23) polls.

    Yet Utah was invited to the Foster Farms Bowl, thereby dropping Stanford down to the Sun. How frantic and emotional of YOU to be denying reality.

    [* This is the part wherein you or some other indy-WACer desperately tries to move the goal posts... *]

  • Lone*Star Austin, TX
    Feb. 13, 2018 12:26 p.m.

    ekute

    How is your constant denigrating of BYU,

    going to help U become something more than a perennial mid PAC South dweller?

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 13, 2018 12:25 p.m.

    Truth Machine:

    "Navel [sic] vet.....What’s your source that Rivals is the most accurate rating service and when was that “Independent” study conducted?"

    Again??? How many times do I have to post that here? You indy-WACers have the memory span of a goldfish!

    Here's your Google search engine requires....AGAIN!

    1. "Rating the Raters: Reviewing Recruiting Services for Success and Bias April 18 2014"
    2. "Ranking the rankers: Revisiting past Rivals and Scout college football recruiting rankings Jon Solomon February 4 2014"
    3. "Rivals predicted the most NFL first-rounders from 2013-17, with Scout last An Eleven Warriors' analysis broke down just how well each recruiting site did at projecting first-round picks from 2013-17 Andrew Bucholtz on 07/07/2017"

    I could find no "external" rating sources that ranked Scout, 247, nor ESPN as the most accurate source.

    Conclusion: Edge Rivals.

  • TrollPolice Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 13, 2018 12:20 p.m.

    Navel vet

    U can’t show me a single PAC 12 bowl that picked Utah over another PAC 12 team with a better record.

    Conversely, I can show you numerous instances of PAC 12 teams with worse records getting picked over Utah.

    How frantic and emotional of you to be denying reality.

  • ekute Layton, UT
    Feb. 13, 2018 12:09 p.m.

    how is your fruitless stomping on the Utes going to put out that dumpster fire in provo?

  • Truth Machine Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 13, 2018 12:07 p.m.

    Navel vet

    What’s your source that Rivals is the most accurate rating service and when was that “Independent” study conducted?

    What metrics were used in the study, which services were included, and what were the actual bottom line numbers?

  • Lester L. Wester Henderson, NV
    Feb. 13, 2018 12:05 p.m.

    Worf: “There's a QB on the current BYU team who was rated a top ten QB all time coming out of high school yet not good enough to be a college QB.”

    What??

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Feb. 13, 2018 11:57 a.m.

    There doesn't need to be any argument about who the best recruiting service is. They all have different ways of evaluating players (some based solely on how players perform at specific camps). The research done is clear that Rivals has the best prediction rate of any of the services, and that Scout.com has the worst.

    That said, Rivals is not far ahead of 247 when it comes to predicting first round draft picks. When it comes to predicting collegiate success the gap is even smaller (Rivals has only predicted 2 more right than 247). I think the 247 composite is the most exhaustive and thorough ranking because it takes into account all the major service rankings...so that would make it less biased.

    But none of that is necessary for Utah and BYU fans because they don't get 5 star athletes and aren't even close to the programs that do. Performance on the field has been shown to be correlative with recruiting, whether we like it or not...so enough of the stars don't matter spin.

    Go Cougs! Go Dawgs!

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 13, 2018 11:47 a.m.

    Gandalph:

    "The real truth is, it's not just USC.....Most of the PAC 12 affiliated bowls would pick any other PAC 12 team over U."

    No, the REAL truth is, you'd just made that up. How frantic and emotional of you.

  • SoonerUte Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 13, 2018 11:39 a.m.

    Rockwell "It's laughable how rating services are always "cherry-picked" and "random", whenever they don't support the current Ute fan narrative."

    In 2016, Utah finished ranked in the top 25 of the AP and Coaches polls. BYU was unranked. Scoreboard doesn't matter, say Cougar fans. Only Sagarin matters, because Sagarin had BYU #36, Utah #37.

    In 2017, suddenly the scoreboard counts. A 6 point difference on the scoreboard "proves" BYU and Utah are almost even, conveniently ignoring the formerly "golden" Sagarin ratings -- Utah #35, BYU #150.

    Cougar fan cherry picking is obvious.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 13, 2018 11:24 a.m.

    Gandalph:

    "You obviously don't understand navel [sic] vet's ground rules...Ratings are only valid if you use navel [sic] vet's cherry-picked rating service,.....rather than the most accurate rating service."

    Cherry-picked??? Name even ONE time that I'd EVER cited ANY recruit rating source OTHER than Rivals as my choice of rating source.

    Can't do it, can ya? I only cite Rivals! And if I only cite Rivals, then that isn't cherry-picking. You'd just made that up. How frantic and emotional of you.

    And FWIW, Rivals was independently rated as the "most accurate" rating service. Not 247. Those who prefer to cite 247 due to it's "averaging" methodology are those who would fall prey to the "argument to moderation" logical fallacy.

  • Gandalph Sandy, UT
    Feb. 13, 2018 11:16 a.m.

    navel vet

    "...the truth is, there likely isn't a single bowl game in the whole state of California that -- if given a choice -- would pick another team ahead of USC."

    The real truth is, it's not just USC.

    Most of the PAC 12 affiliated bowls would pick any other PAC 12 team over U.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 13, 2018 11:11 a.m.

    phoenix:

    "According to 247 Sports, you've never signed a 5-star recruit..."

    So? According to Rivals, we HAD signed one. Scout records Utah with having signed a 5-star recruit, but I neglected to mention that one because Scout hadn't ever been rated as the "most accurate" of all recruit rating sources. And neither had 247 for that matter. Rivals had.

    Spin it anyway that helps U sleep at night, but the FACT is, "northern_lights", "FACTchequer", "Ufan", and "Marked it Down" were ALL wrong! I was right. They were wrong. And that just drives indy-WACers like you, "Rockwell", "Bubble boy utes", "Jello is Good", "SLCWatch", and that indy-WACer leaving posts pretending to be me and/or Chris B just absolutely crazy! Because you all just WISH so hard that it weren't so. How frustratingly miserable for you all. Haha!

  • Gandalph Sandy, UT
    Feb. 13, 2018 11:03 a.m.

    phoenix

    "According to 247 Sports, you've never signed a 5-star recruit, while USC has signed FOURTEEN 5-star recruits in the last 5 recruiting classes."

    You obviously don't understand navel vet's ground rules.

    Ratings are only valid if you use navel vet's cherry-picked rating service,

    rather than the most accurate rating service.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 13, 2018 11:02 a.m.

    Phoenix:

    "You can speculate on the 'reason' all you want to, but bottom line is the Holiday Bowl wanted USC, not U."

    See that? Now your moving the goal posts again. That's so typical of cougar nation. First you insinuate that it's some sort of "Pac-12 thing". Now you're admitting that it was a "USC" thing all along. But the truth is, there likely isn't a single bowl game in the whole state of California that -- if given a choice -- would pick another team ahead of USC.

    Fail.

  • phoenix Gilbert, AZ
    Feb. 13, 2018 10:54 a.m.

    Navel vet

    "Yeah, and that reason was that given the choice between Utah and USC, the Holiday Bowl preferred the "California" team. Duh!"

    You can speculate on the "reason" all you want to, but bottom line is the Holiday Bowl wanted USC, not U.

  • phoenix Gilbert, AZ
    Feb. 13, 2018 10:50 a.m.

    @northern_lights: "Navel Vet.....LOL at how you completely dodged listing the 5-star recruits that Utah has signed.....Still waiting for your list of Utah 5 stars."

    @navel vet: "What are you talking about teeny-tiny little bro? I didn't dodge it. I addressed it in my "Feb. 12, 2018 6:30 p.m." post -- about a 104-min prior to your post accusing me of dodging it!"

    According to 247 Sports, you've never signed a 5-star recruit, while USC has signed FOURTEEN 5-star recruits in the last 5 recruiting classes.

    Spin it anyway that helps U sleep at night, but those are the facts.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 13, 2018 10:40 a.m.

    phoenix:

    "There's a reason why fellow PAC 12 members with worse overall records continue to be slotted higher in the PAC 12 bowl pecking order than U."

    Yeah, and that reason was that given the choice between Utah and USC, the Holiday Bowl preferred the "California" team. Duh!

  • phoenix Gilbert, AZ
    Feb. 13, 2018 10:32 a.m.

    Sooner Ute

    "You're ignoring the upside of Utah's bowl potential. Had ESPN not arranged the Debacle In the Desert vs BYU , Utah should have earned the Holiday Bowl that year."

    You're confusing Utah's market value to bowl organizers with your overly inflated opinion of the national interest in Ute football.

    There's a reason why fellow PAC 12 members with worse overall records continue to be slotted higher in the PAC 12 bowl pecking order than U.

    The sad truth is, the Holiday Bowl didn't want U.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 13, 2018 10:29 a.m.

    northern_lights:

    "Navel Vet.....LOL at how you completely dodged listing the 5-star recruits that Utah has signed.....Still waiting for your list of Utah 5 stars."

    What are you talking about teeny-tiny little bro? I didn't dodge it. I addressed it in my "Feb. 12, 2018 6:30 p.m." post -- about a 104-min prior to your post accusing me of dodging it!

    Still waiting for you to admit that you were wrong about me having not posted about Utah signing a 5-star recruit named James Aiono!

  • Rockwell Baltimore, MD
    Feb. 13, 2018 10:25 a.m.

    Uteology

    "What is hilarious is BYU's massive recruiting advantage over Weber State yet you finished 5th in state.

    Class Rankings:
    #3 USC
    #38 Utah
    #94 BYU"

    What's really hilarious is BYU's haters pretending that BYU's first losing season since 2004 is a trend, rather than what it really is, an anomaly.

    Even more hilarious is pretending that ordinal differences in rankings are meaningful, while completely ignoring qualitative differences.

    Utah is MUCH closer to BYU in terms of 4- and 5-star recruits, than the Utes are to USC.

  • Whoa Nellie American Fork, UT
    Feb. 13, 2018 10:24 a.m.

    sir,
    "BYU has 6 games scheduled against very good teams. Maybe in future years BYU should "Dumb down their schedule as in the past to where they have 2-3 good teams and the rest games that are "winnable" for BYU. (Most Ute fans would be happy to help - perhaps scheduling a BYU vs Utah game once every 10 years.)"

    I see BYU is scheduled to play Arizona, Wisconsin, Washington and Boise State next year. Which two teams are the other "very good" ones? NIU and UMass, or Cal and NIU?

    BYU fans do appreciate the scheduling of Utah to facilitate dumbing down the Y's schedule. Thank you, even though fans have no input on it.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 13, 2018 10:20 a.m.

    Jello:

    "@ Naval...95, 96, 97, 98 and 99. One more and you will reach the century mark of obsession."

    ...said the indy-WACer who keeps a constant running tab on the number of comments I actually leave. Typical hypocritical coug!

    And who's this indy-WACer leaving posts under MY name back on Feb. 12, 2018 at 9:52 p.m.? I've actually seen several of them over the past week. Talk about an "obsession". You cougie fans are so obsessed with me, that you're starting to pretend to BE me!

    "As I have said before, you would rather be in LES booing than RES cheering."

    You may have "said" that before, but since you'd just "made that up", it's of no consequence. If I would rather boo at LES than cheer at RES, then why haven't I ever gone to any cougar games? I flew all the way across the country to watch the Utah-UWa game last Nov, and the Utah-Ind game 11-months before that! I'd also flown down to El Paso for the 2011 Sun Bowl. But did I fly to Las Vegas for the 2015 Las Vegas Bowl?

    Nope. Didn't care. I have no intention of flying all the way across the country to watch Utah play small ball.

    Fail.

  • Rockwell Baltimore, MD
    Feb. 13, 2018 10:17 a.m.

    Sooner

    "35-0 after 10 minutes of play is not something I expect from a "best" opponent."

    BYU gifted U FIVE touchdowns in the first 10 minutes, then dominated U the remainder of the game, coming up one possession shy of sending the game into OT.

    Passing Offense
    BYU 25/56, 315 yards
    Utah 9/16, 71 yards

    Rushing Offense
    BYU 25 carries, 71 yards, 2.8 y/c
    Utah 47 carries, 126 yards, 2.7 y/c

    Total Offense
    BYU 386 yards
    Utah 197 yards

    It's laughable how rating services are always "cherry-picked" and "random", whenever they don't support the current Ute fan narrative.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 13, 2018 10:12 a.m.

    BlueHusky:

    "I like the former BYU 2-star who is Utah's head coach."

    Except that Kyle Whittingham wasn't a "2-star" former player. You'd just made that up. How frantic and emotional of you.

    Star ratings didn't exist until the late 1990s.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 13, 2018 10:05 a.m.

    SLCWatch:

    "Navel [sic] vet-Everything you said in your last post was an admission that you are obsessed with BYU, except for your statement that you would never admit it. And you accuse someone else of 'Moving the goal posts'?"

    I accused somebody else of moving the goal posts because he moved the goal posts. I even PROVED it! You on the other hand just tossed out some hyperbolic accusation, and failed to support even one iota of it. In other words, you'd just made that up. How frantic and emotional of you.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Feb. 13, 2018 10:01 a.m.

    @Rockwell

    btw, it's hilarious how you whine about having USC's massive recruiting advantage "thrown in your face", while you're throwing Utah's MUCH smaller recruiting advantage in BYU's face.

    -------

    What is hilarious is BYU's massive recruiting advantage over Weber State yet you finished 5th in state.

    Class Rankings:
    #3 USC
    #38 Utah
    #94 BYU

    When did BYU "fans" start cheering for all things USC?

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 13, 2018 10:01 a.m.

    65TossPowerTrap:

    "Get serious and rational. [The cougars'] 2018 [schedule] is just as hard..."

    It's just as hard as what??? Last year's 74th-rank SOS??? Didn't you mean that your 2018 schedule is "just as EASY"???

    Weak SOS midmajors forever.

  • JackRyanSLC Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 13, 2018 9:57 a.m.

    Keep it Simple. Utah is slowly improving recruiting classes, facilities, and player depth the last few years. In business terms, we are trending in the right direction and the business fundamentals are solid. Results on the field are slowly improving...a few more years of this trend and it could get interesting. Can you say the same about BYU's program?

  • SoonerUte Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 13, 2018 9:42 a.m.

    Rockwell - Utah's best bowl opponent, by far, has been... BYU"
    You can cherry pick numbers from some ranking service to make BYU look good, but "best bowl opponent"? 35-0 after 10 minutes of play is not something I expect from a "best" opponent.

    You're ignoring the upside of Utah's bowl potential. Had ESPN not arranged the Debacle In the Desert vs BYU , Utah should have earned the Holiday Bowl that year. Winning the south could earn the Utes a NY6 game. In contrast, the Las Vegas Bowl is the best that BYU can realistically reach anymore.

  • ekute Layton, UT
    Feb. 13, 2018 9:31 a.m.

    Jello is Good,
    It would appear that most of your byu friends would rather be at USC cheering.

  • Howard S. Taylorsville, UT
    Feb. 13, 2018 9:03 a.m.

    I smell natty...

  • Rockwell Baltimore, MD
    Feb. 13, 2018 8:45 a.m.

    ekute

    "For those throwing USC in Utah's face, consider this-

    As of recent Utah is 2-2 vs USC and lost last year by just 1 point."

    Remind us how many CCG, CFP and NY6 bowls have the Utes have played in.

    What you've failed to understand is that USC's recruiting was off a little when Utah joined the PAC 12.

    In the last 5 classes, it's improved dramatically, and the 4- and 5-star recruits from the 2013 and 2014 classes are now Juniors and Seniors, talented and experienced.

    btw, it's hilarious how you whine about having USC's massive recruiting advantage "thrown in your face", while you're throwing Utah's MUCH smaller recruiting advantage in BYU's face.

  • Jello is Good ,
    Feb. 13, 2018 8:36 a.m.

    @ Naval
    95, 96, 97, 98 and 99. One more and you will reach the century mark of obsession. You are the best BYU fan ever.

    As I have said before, you would rather be in LES booing than RES cheering.

  • Rockwell Baltimore, MD
    Feb. 13, 2018 8:35 a.m.

    SoonerUte

    Since joining the "conference of champions", Utah's best bowl opponentl, by far, has been...

    BYU,

    in the Las Vegas Bowl.

    2011 - Sun - Ga Tech (#56)
    2014 - Las Vegas - CSU (#65)
    2015 - Las Vegas - BYU (#39)
    2016 - Foster Farms - Ind (#69)
    2017 - Heart of Dallas - WVa (#49)

  • Floridacougfan Davenport, FL
    Feb. 13, 2018 8:35 a.m.

    A word of advise to my fellow Coug fans:

    Stop with the losing/lame arguments. I have two I wish to address today.

    1. Stars don't matter. Go to ESPN.com and use the search to look up "Who makes the College Football Playoffs: The recruiting rankings will tell you". Neither BYU nor Utah will ever win a National Championship unless there is a paradigm shift. I am ok with this as BYU is ahead 1-0, As a side note Utah can say its old, but they still don't have one. There are exceptions to every rule, for example, low ranking players coming into their own and excelling at the college and pro level. And the opposite, highly ranked players that flame out. Neither of these change the overall trend.

    2. We only lost by "x" amount of points. Stupid argument, we lost. Seven in a row is domination regardless of point differential. It is probable that this streak will continue as BYU tries to get its act together. We have no room to brag because we only lost by "x" amount of points. Lamest argument ever.

    With that said I will continue to cheer for my Cougars and hold out some hope for victory every time we play the Utes. I invite my fellow BYU fans to dump the pathetic arguments.....please.

  • ekute Layton, UT
    Feb. 13, 2018 8:33 a.m.

    For those throwing USC in Utah's face, consider this-

    As of recent Utah is 2-2 vs USC and lost last year by just 1 point.

    Using happy valley logic, it would appear that the 2 programs are virtually identical.

  • 65TossPowerTrap Salmon, ID
    Feb. 13, 2018 8:27 a.m.

    "The 2018 schedule is far softer than the 2017. Sitaki really needs to finish 10 - 3 with a bowl win to show that he has what it takes."

    Get serious and rational. 2018 is just as hard, and by the way - Detmer is gone - get over it.

  • SoonerUte Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 13, 2018 8:09 a.m.

    eagle - Provo, UT "Utes barely beating BYU has telegraphed a lot of mediocre seasons"
    3 of 4 seasons ending with a top 25 ranking is what you call mediocre?
    BYU would love to be "mediocre". I hope the Utes are "mediocre" again this season.

    "appearance in a lackluster bowl"
    For a BYU fan, thank goodness for those, right? If not for "too many bowl games", where would the Cougars play? BYU's future is lackluster bowl games. All the "good games" are contractually obligated. An 11 win season could easily mean the Heart Of Dallas Bowl for BYU.

  • scenic view Baltimore, MD
    Feb. 13, 2018 8:07 a.m.

    Capsaicin

    "Let’s talk about the ethos of keeping a program around that has nothing to do with academics, and is hard on the brain and body. BYU should shut down their football sports program."

    We'll follow the lead of that brainiac conference on the left coast on that one, since they're supposed to be the gold standard of academic excellence in the wild, wild west.

  • SLCWatch Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 13, 2018 8:00 a.m.

    Navel vet-
    Everything you said in your last post was an admission that you are obsessed with BYU, except for your statement that you would never admit it. And you accuse someone else of “Moving the goal posts”?

  • Capsaicin Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 13, 2018 4:02 a.m.

    Let’s talk about the ethos of keeping a program around that has nothing to do with academics, and is hard on the brain and body. BYU should shut down their football sports program.

  • london_josh lincoln, CA
    Feb. 13, 2018 2:36 a.m.

    "byu's average star recruiting class for 2018 is 2.1 - Tell me the last time a team won a football national title with such a horribly low class."

    I believe the goal is to make it to a bowl game with 6 wins.

    Also, return missionaries don't have proper star rankings, the system has never really worked out for BYU and the years that BYU did well didn't necessarily translate into wins for BYU.

    Meanwhile, Utah should be a solid #3 in the PAC south based on recruiting, miles behind USC and well behind UCLA and a bit ahead of Zona and Buffs and ASU - but don't you still need to play the game?

    Who cares about the stars - it's all in how the players show up for the games!

  • BleedingBlue Provo, UT
    Feb. 13, 2018 1:02 a.m.

    This is a make or break year for Sitaki. Nine or more years, contract renewal. Eight or seven wins, one more year. Six or fewer wins and it’s new head coach time. He might get another year if he finishes 6 -6 with a Utah victory and a bowl win (7 - 6).

    The 2018 schedule is far softer than the 2017. Sitaki really needs to finish 10 - 3 with a bowl win to show that he has what it takes. Michigan State did it from 2016 to 2017, turning around a from a 3 - 9 year to a 10 - 3 top 20 ranking in one year.

    But don’t hold your breath.

  • Mountainman38 Idaho Falls, ID
    Feb. 12, 2018 11:50 p.m.

    Tweaking is nice in tennis, maybe, but in football good hard blocking and tackling would produce better results. Last season Nebraska also won only four games. You might be interested in reading (Lincoln newspapers) about what the new coach is doing to fix the problem(s). No mention about "tweaking." And in two days Husker fans bought out all the tickets (90,000+) for the spring game. How about responding with more fire and enthusiasm from the Cougar coaches, players and fans?

  • BlueHusky Mission Viejo, CA
    Feb. 12, 2018 10:48 p.m.

    You guys and your stars. Don't you realize that half or more of BYU's 2 and 3 star players come back from missions 2 years older. Coaches complain about BYU's older players for a good reason. Maturity makes a difference.

    As for your criticisms of the coaches ... you don't know squat about coaching unless you played. And if you played, you wouldn't be making such stupid statements.

    As I have been saying over and over, it is COACHES that matter. Great coaches attract great players, but it takes a few years. USC with all their 5 stars was mediocre the last decade, losing to Oregon and Stanford consistently. Oregon had two great coaches. Washington was mediocre ever since Don James was fired. Three years ago, Chris Peterson left Boise for Washington. Bingo: National Championship Game. Before Sabin came to Alabama, UA sucked. Do I need to say more?

    I like the former BYU 2-star who is Utah's head coach. But he hates offense or something. His defense is great, his offense is not. He's half of a great coach. New OC's every year is not a good thing.

    Finally, a 7 game streak is not permanent. Oregon beat UW more than a dozen straight until last year. Now it is 2-0 and counting.

  • backpacn Sandy, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 9:48 p.m.

    scrappy do

    “You can’t beat the big boys without talent

    Ethos is just a mirage on the gridiron”

    Which is precisely why the Utes will never win a PAC 12 Championship or play in the CFP.

    The Utes will never out-recruit the big boys of the PAC 12.

  • eagle Provo, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 9:22 p.m.

    I think the Utes barely beating BYU has telegraphed a lot of mediocre seasons, a November swoon of big losses in clutch moments and an appearance in a lackluster bowl. Heck, in one they can even play BYU.

  • Uteanymous Salt Lake City, Utah
    Feb. 12, 2018 9:09 p.m.

    JD

    Where’d you seduce from anything written in the article that Sitake didn’t work just as hard in assembling his first group of coaches?

    Coaching is just as much a learning process for coaches, as becoming a successful college football player is for athletes.

  • MRM Layton, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 8:36 p.m.

    AZUTE1

    Sorry to burst your crimson bubble, but, according to 247 Sports,

    Garrett Bolles was a 4-star recruit.

    Utah hasn’t signed a single 5-star recruit in more than a decade.

  • Bubble boy utes Orem, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 8:36 p.m.

    According to 247 - All time recruits

    BYU
    5 Stars = 2
    4 Stars = 20

    Utah
    5 Stars = 0
    4 Stars = 22

  • JD Las Vegas, NV
    Feb. 12, 2018 8:26 p.m.

    Well this statement said it all... "Kalani has worked tremendously hard and put in a lot of time on issues." So he didn't do that before? Hmm...

  • scrappy do DRAPER, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 8:22 p.m.

    You can’t beat the big boys without talent

    Ethos is just a mirage on the gridiron

  • northern_lights Layton, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 8:14 p.m.

    Navel Vet

    LOL at how you completely dodged listing the 5-star recruits that Utah has signed.

    It obviously hurts having to admit that USC has signed more 5-star recruits in the last five years (14), than Utah has signed in their entire history,

    as well as 59 4-star recruits, compared to Utah’s 11.

    Per 247 Sports:
    4- and 5-stars signed since 2014

    USC - 73
    Utah - 11

    Spin it anyway that helps you sleep at night, but that’s HUGE, compared to Utah’s 4- and 5-Star advantage over BYU.

    Still waiting for your list of Utah 5 stars.

  • Bubble boy utes Orem, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 8:11 p.m.

    @Naval Vet

    Who is James Aiono??? Honestly I never heard of him. I had to look him up and he was a CC transfer who played for the Utes for two seasons and recorded 12 tackles. Is this the 5 Star recruit you're bragging about?

    247 had him as a 4 star. Looks like he was all hype.

  • cmbennett1 OGDEN, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 7:23 p.m.

    The only ethos that needs to be stressed if that of football fundamentals. Blocking, tackling, running, throwing and catching.

  • worf McAllen, TX
    Feb. 12, 2018 6:49 p.m.

    @Utah033--It's not Tanner Mangum. There's a QB on the current BYU team who was rated a top ten QB all time coming out of high school yet not good enough to be a college QB.

    He's not one of those competing to be QB this fall.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 12, 2018 6:30 p.m.

    Rockwell:

    "If you're going to knit pick other blogger's 'facts', you should at least do a little fact checking of your own."

    I DID do my own fact checking! That's how I know that my facts were correct, and "FACTchequer's" were wrong! And you know it too! Isn't that why you tried moving the goal posts??? "FACTchequer" specifically stipulated a 10-yr period; not the 5 you'd disingenuously tried moving the goal posts too. And per 247, over the past decade, Utah signed nineteen 4-star athletes. And since USC's best single season haul was in 2015 in that publication, with 18 athletes at or above 4-stars, "FACTchequer" was STILL wrong, as 19 > 18. How embarrassing for you BOTH! Haha!

    Bottom line: You had no point.

    Edge: Naval Vet

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 12, 2018 6:30 p.m.

    Marked it Down and Ufan:

    "You falsely imply that Utah has actually signed several 5-star recruits in the past decade. Name them…"

    First of all, never had I ever stated nor implied that Utah had "several" 5-star recruits. You just made that up. How frantic and emotional of you. Straw man much?

    What I'd said was "Utah had signed 27 athletes at OR above 4-stars." So that means that if Utah even signed ONE 5-star recruit, plus 26 4-star kids, then my statement would have been 100% accurate. And it WAS! Go check Rivals' 2009 recruiting class for Utah, and count how many stars James Aiono had, and come back here and tell me. Or do the cougar thing and either run away, or make some desperate attempt to move the goal posts, like what Rockwell tried doing at 2:37.

    Second, when "FACTchequer" said, "USC signs more 4 and 5 star recruits in ONE recruiting class, than the Utes sign in a decade," it was HE who'd set the bar at 4 AND 5 star recruits. So even if Utah had zero 5-star recruits, it would be irrelevant ANYWAY, as "FACTchequer" wanted to count the 5-star kids as well.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 12, 2018 6:18 p.m.

    Rockwell:

    "If you're going to knit pick other blogger's 'facts', you should at least do a little fact checking of your own."

    I DID do my own fact checking! That's how I know that my facts were correct, and "FACTchequer's" were wrong! And you know it too! Isn't that why you tried moving the goal posts??? "FACTchequer" specifically stipulated a 10-yr period; not the 5 you'd disingenuously tried moving the goal posts too. And per 247, over the past decade, Utah signed nineteen 4-star athletes. And since USC's best single season haul was in 2015 in that publication, with 18 athletes at or above 4-stars, "FACTchequer" was STILL wrong, as 19 > 18. How embarrassing for you BOTH! Haha!

    Bottom line: You had no point.

    Edge: Naval Vet

  • AZUTE1 Mesa, AZ
    Feb. 12, 2018 5:45 p.m.

    Gb was a 5-Star recruit & Jt/Se as 4-Stars just barely missed that designation, themselves.

    Although we always play vanilla during our Ooc games, we still doubled-up byu in total yds & led from start-to-finish & were never seriously threatened....The final margin of 6 was 100% rooted in our plethora of unforced mental errors via penalties, even after we’d built our insurmountable 16-0 lead.

    In fact, the game concluded w/us taking a knee @ byu’s 15 yard-line, in merciful fashion.

    p.s. byu had an insurmountable length of the field to drive to beat us in the end & went absolutely nowhere in it.

    During our 7 games & counting winning streak, byu has held the lead against us for a blazing/whopping 3+ min....Lol

    Midmajor forever.

    Who’s your Daddy?

    Go Utes!

  • From Ted's Head Orem, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 5:30 p.m.

    I'm not overly concerned about BYU's poor 2017 season in that I don't have high expectations for their football program. Sure I would like them to win and beat the Utes as least once a decade, but at what cost? More willful Honor Code violations and embarrassment for BYU, its alums (including me) and the LDS Church, ala the Crowton years?

    Give Bronco his due. He emphasized that football success was just one of the goals for the team. What he lacked in passion or warmth was offset by a belief in discipline, hard work, and adherence to solid underlying principles that BYU students as a whole believe in.

    Thanks to some once-a-decade talents in Taysom and Jamaal, Sitake's debut year was a successful one. In Year Two the pendulum swung too far and the lack of top talent, combined with ineffective leadership at both the coach and player level, resulted in a historically bad season. I expect to see BYU finish in the 6-6 range at this point, good enough to justify keeping the program as an independent, good enough for everyone to keep their jobs, not good enough to satisfy the more rabid fans.

    I am concerned about Grimes. Does he really understand what's in play at BYU?

  • Kug Big Arm, MT
    Feb. 12, 2018 5:11 p.m.

    I've always enjoyed BYU football as a church member and football fan. This past season was sad but not surprising to me. What would I know from a distance, but I hate to say it but I think Coach Sitake was the wrong hire. The guy from Navy knows how to run a team. The article above sounds exactly like many a CEO I worked within the business world before retirement. When you start talking culture you're in trouble. Coach Sitake seems like a wonderfully nice man and its awful to see him go through this as it is the kids. But football requires discipline, both personal and team. Leaders can have different styles of getting it, but you won't win without it. If culture was the problem why overhaul the staff? And hiring an experienced football guy as OC who has never been an OC is not much different than hiring Detmer, clearly a football guy with no OC experience. Seems a shame to me but 2018 will be no better.

  • NeilT Ogden, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 5:07 p.m.

    The sky is not falling. Lots of big name schools have down years. I can name Texas, USC, Notre Dame and Michigan and Oregon. I predict B YU will win at least seven games next year. I read where Auburn won two games the prior year before playing for the national championship. I admit loosing to U-Mass and barely beating Portland State was embarresing. Can't wait until next year.

  • "Hakuna Matata" Vernal, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 4:47 p.m.

    BYU better deliver this upcoming season of Sitake just may end up being unemployed. Best of luck to him and his Staff.

  • bhansen DeRidder, LA
    Feb. 12, 2018 4:34 p.m.

    Sitake's failure was evidenced in week 1 against LSU. How he allowed his players to walk 2 by 2, like elementary school kids, on to the field was humiliating. He is completely out of his league as a coach, administrator and manager. It's a shame he was not let go. We are going to have a similar or worse year this year. In my opinion we can't get rid of him soon enough. I love how he says, he "loves" the coaches he fired and nothing has changed. Well I can attest that everyone I have fired the relationship completely changes. It's disrespectful to even pretend it doesn't. It minimizes the impact of someone loosing their job.

  • SoonerUte Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 4:30 p.m.

    blue & white - "The real proof will be the final record next fall. The Y will be better . Utah will be status quo."
    Brave prediction. To improve, BYU has to get past UMass and Northern Illinois. Utah has to get past Stanford and USC. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison.

  • FT salt lake city, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 4:24 p.m.

    Mendenhall and Sataki should be commended for getting the results they have, with the talent that they've been able to recruit and coach. This is not 1984 and just how is an independent from a small town in Utah supposed to compete with a P5 program consistently? It's not going to happen so everyone should just enjoy what they have or petition the school to get back into a non P5 conference.

  • Curtaco Monroe, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 4:04 p.m.

    The transition to a head coach is a big leap, and the racetrack is full of former OC/DC that failed to make the jump. When a coach is successful over a period of time then it's never a coincidence but a culture. BYU should be able to rebound next week with a bunch of Pac12 teams on the schedule, and only 1 school from a power conference. Its realistic that they win 50% against the Pac12, which is about the same winning percentage Utah achieves. Its the game against the Badgers that should keep Sitake up at night. Despite a dominant record the past 20 years in baseball, basketball, and track and field against Utah, they have certainly slipped against Utah in Football. 2 more losses to Utah and Sitake will once again be a defensive coordinator.

  • skywalker Palo Alto, CA
    Feb. 12, 2018 3:47 p.m.

    I have tremendous respect for Sitake making the tough decision to dismiss Detmer. Even though I believe that Ty would have eventually been successful, Kalani didn't have the luxury of waiting several more years for that too happen. Unfortunately, I think that Detmer was simply too nice and that didn't work when BYU lacked the player leadership to promote the discipline needed.

    ---------------

    As far as the misguided pronouncement by a certain fan about "margin of victory" being "critical" in 2004...

    Per Sagarin 2004:

    "In ELO-CHESS, only winning and losing matters;

    the score margin is of no consequence,

    which makes it very "politically correct".

    However it is less accurate...

    The ELO-CHESS will be utilized by the Bowl Championship Series (BCS)."

  • Truth Machine Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 3:35 p.m.

    Utemythology

    "In 2004, "margin of victory" for a crucial variable in BCS rankings."

    FALSE!

    "Margin of Victory" was completely irrelevant in the computer ranking systems used by the BCS.

  • Ufan Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 3:32 p.m.

    @navel vet: "Per Rivals, Utah had signed 27 athletes over the past decade ranked at or above 4-stars."

    @Marked it Down: "You falsely imply that Utah has actually signed several 5-star recruits in the past decade. Name them - year and ranking systems (Rivals, Scout, and 247 Sports):...
    * bueller, bueller, bueller *"

    Unfortunately, you'l be waiting a long time.

    I don't even recall the last 5-star recruit signed by the Utes.

  • TruCoug Mission Viejo, CA
    Feb. 12, 2018 3:31 p.m.

    This article is spot on that the bottom falling out on the program has been the result of culture devoid of discipline. Sitake's success year one was Bronco system carryover. Cultures are set by the head/CEO of organization not their lieutenants. Even though Lamb says things are changing, the problem here is that Sitake, the CEO, has yet to articulate it or any clear vision or plan or system about how he's driving the culture. Smells of Crowton 2.0?

    Why wasn't Sitake the one articulating the plan? Being interview? Probably because it's not his.

    Whenever an organization fires people in mass because of performance, the problem is not the people but usually based in the organization head not giving them clear direction and expectations.

  • phantomblade Salt Lake City, Utah
    Feb. 12, 2018 3:27 p.m.

    Uteology

    "One BIG difference, you are not doing victory laps for margin of "victory".

    You are doing victory laps for margin of DEFEAT, for the 7th straight time."

    A difference yes, but the "dominance" Utah fans so desperately crave,

    simply doesn't exist.

  • Uteanymous Salt Lake City, Utah
    Feb. 12, 2018 3:21 p.m.

    Silver Stingray

    "Its going to take a lot more than "tweaking." He should be fired himself."

    If it doesn't work out and BYU has another season like 2017, he probably will be.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Feb. 12, 2018 3:20 p.m.

    On Rivals, BYU's 2018 class is currently ranked #7 nationally.

    The question is, when BYU goes 5-7 to 7-5 next season will that class be ranked in the top 60s or top 80s?

  • Silver Stingray St George, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 3:16 p.m.

    Its going to take a lot more than "tweaking." He should be fired himself.

  • Marked it Down Park City, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 3:03 p.m.

    navel vet

    "Per Rivals, Utah had signed 27 athletes over the past decade ranked at or above 4-stars."

    You falsely imply that Utah has actually signed several 5-star recruits in the past decade.

    Name them - year and ranking systems (Rivals, Scout, and 247 Sports):...

    * bueller, bueller, bueller *

  • Utah033 Clearfield, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 3:01 p.m.

    Yes, Utah is where I am from nothing to do with the Utes.. 100% agree with you.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Feb. 12, 2018 3:01 p.m.

    Road Runner - Cedar City, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 12:00 p.m.
    Uncle Rico

    Margin of victory is only meaningless to U when it contradicts the current, self-serving Utah narrative.

    In 2004, Utah fans boasted about how the Utes destroyed every team they played, even though the Utes didn’t play anybody.

    What happened to a win is a win?
    -------------

    One BIG difference, you are not doing victory laps for margin of "victory".

    You are doing victory laps for margin of DEFEAT, for the 7th straight time.

    While you ignore the entire 2017 season (i.e., national rankings):

    Utah #35
    BYU #112

    In 2004, "margin of victory" for a crucial variable in BCS rankings. Utah became the first and one of only two mid-majors (TCU the other) to ever finish in the BCS Top 6 to auto qualify.

  • ND95CA Lincoln Park, IL
    Feb. 12, 2018 2:55 p.m.

    Utah033

    "And stars don't matter ? Well in the title game Saban benched his 5 star qb, put in another 5 star qb, rb and wr all freshman and how did that turn out for him ?

    So U agree that the Utes are simply spinning their wheels because they don't have a prayer of ever out-recruiting USC -

    USC out-recruiting Utah 14-0 five-star and 59-11 four-star since 2014 is proof of that -

    nor UCLA, Stanford, Oregon and Washington on a consistent basis?

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 2:55 p.m.

    Chris:
    "If stars didnt matter, you'd see teams like byu full of 2 stars winning national titles. You dont. EVER".

    Thank you Chris for showing why Utah will never win a national title or get into the CFP. EVER. You are consistently beat out in recruiting by the top half of the PAC12, and that will never change. I'm glad to see you're finally owning that the team you cheer for will never bring you the hardware you want...so you will gnash your teeth in a jealous rage over BYU's 84 title and minimize it with all the other kids on the hill because it will start sinking in that it's never going to happen for U.

  • Rockwell Baltimore, MD
    Feb. 12, 2018 2:47 p.m.

    JackRyanSLC

    "I'm worried Lamb will be the end of Sitaki [sic]. Lamb has way too much influence in the program with his "self empowerment" philosophy."

    Did you even bother reading the article?

    Kalani has already recognized the limitations of the "self-empowerment" philosophy and is moving away from it.

    btw, his name is spelled SITAKE!

  • Utah033 Clearfield, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 2:46 p.m.

    @worf - McAllen, TX

    Mangum was an elite 11 qb his senior year yes, but no one has ever called him one of the best ever that's a tad of an overstatement. And stars don't matter ? Well in the title game Saban benched his 5 star qb, put in another 5 star qb, rb and wr all freshman and how did that turn out for him ? Stiake has to go a 2 star qb and they cant win anything might have even lost to Weber State last year. So to say stars don't matter then why do the same 3 or 4 teams always make the playoffs because they have the best players who also happened be 5 star players..

  • Rockwell Baltimore, MD
    Feb. 12, 2018 2:37 p.m.

    navelvel

    "Per Rivals, Utah had signed 27 athletes over the past decade ranked at or above 4-stars."

    If you're going to knit pick other blogger's "facts", you should at least do a little fact checking of your own.

    Per 247 Sports, in the last half decade (since 2014), THE most relevant period:

    USC has signed 14 five-star and 59 four-star recruits
    Utah has signed 0 five-star and 11 four-star recruits

    Can you even name 5 five-star recruits, that the Utes have signed,

    EVER,

    let alone, 14?

    Bottom line:

    14-0 five-star and 59-11 four-star

    is a HUGE differential,

    regardless of how desperately U try to minimize it.

  • kaysvillecougar KAYSVILLE, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 2:30 p.m.

    I have to say that I have a tremendous amount of respect for Ed Lamb. I hope this next year is a happier year for the Cougar faithful.

  • JackRyanSLC Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 2:05 p.m.

    I'm worried Lamb will be the end of Sitaki. Lamb has way too much influence in the program with his "self empowerment" philosophy. There is not a successful program in the country that uses that philosophy. The top programs know that you have to micromanage college football kids. This attitude of trusting the kids to do the right thing doesn't work in college football. It seems a bit arrogant for Lamb and Sitaki to think they can do it differently than every other successful program...just saying. Sitaki is great, but Lamb is dangerous with his philosophies...I don't understand why he is so highly thought of...sure he won a few Big Sky Championships, but they never did anything in the playoffs.

  • Rockwell Baltimore, MD
    Feb. 12, 2018 1:47 p.m.

    TroyTown

    You don't understand.

    Utah having a 2-0 four-star advantage over BYU is HUGE.
    USC having a 5-0 five-star and a 13-2 four-star advantage over Utah is minuscule.

  • 3grandslams Eagle Mountain, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 1:46 p.m.

    Sounds like Sitske ted to Ben a friend first before being a coach. He road on the coat tails of Mendenhall's discipline his first year, then got burned the second. I hope he finds a good mix this year. Same thing happened with Crowton but he never fixed it.

  • worf McAllen, TX
    Feb. 12, 2018 1:41 p.m.

    Stars mean very little!

    Last year BYU had a four/five star QB who was considered one of the top ten ever QBs out of high school.

    Most folks don't know who is.

    How did Jake Heaps pan out compared to Steve Young?

    Coaches matter!

  • Scores Idaho Falls, ID
    Feb. 12, 2018 1:39 p.m.

    "Nobody can really tell until the Cougars travel to Tucson and the guy in stripes flips the coin."

    You and the rest of us won't be able to tell until the guy in stripes flips the coin...but the coaches will know. They will know, because there is nobody remotely as close to the players as the coaches. It's up to them to have the guys ready to play...at a high level...and continue that high level and improve on it every game as the season moves along.

    Only time will tell for the rest of us. I am optimistic that we'll see improved results in a dramatic fashion from last season.
    Go Cougars!

  • blue n gold Redmond, WA
    Feb. 12, 2018 1:38 p.m.

    Former Coach

    "You failed to mention how many points Utah has outscored BYU in LES in the last three games."

    Except for the Heap's meltdown anomaly:

    Last three at RES: 16-17, 21-24, 19-20 = 5 points total, less than 2 ppg
    Last two at LES: 13- 20, 13-19 = 13 points total, less than 7 ppg
    Neutral site: 28-35 = 7 points total, 7 ppg
    Overall: 25 points total, just over 4 ppg

    Utah has been better, but only slightly better.

  • Bubble boy utes Orem, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 1:35 p.m.

    Using the recruiting class rank as a metric is inaccurate as the numbers are highly influenced by the number of players signed. For instance in 2012 BYU signed 15 while Utah signed 27. This made BYU's class rank 71 and Utah's 38.

    A better way to tell the difference is to take the average of all player ratings during a period of time. For this I chose the past 8 years.

    Utah 84.64
    BYU 81.73

    Utah has a better average than BYU, although the gap isn't large.

    Bronco 81.4
    Kalani 82.29

    Kalani is doing better than Bronco with recruiting. Time will tell if his recruits perform better the current Bronco's recruits the past two years.

    As of note -- Grimes was ranked in the top 10 recruits in 2018. Although this was for his work at LSU, I believe his influence and skill will land better recruits going forward for BYU.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 12, 2018 1:34 p.m.

    FACTchequer:

    "USC signs more 4 and 5 star recruits in ONE recruiting class, than the Utes sign in a decade."

    You REALLY ought to do some "fact checking" if you're going to call yourself "FACTchequer". Per Rivals, Utah had signed 27 athletes over the past decade ranked at or above 4-stars. USC's top class for 4-5 star athletes was last week. And that was 18 -- aka, 33.3% FEWER than what the Utes signed "in a decade", and THUS...

    ...you were WRONG! How embarrassing for you!

    Cue the cougar backpedal...

    "The truth is, Utah fans are forced to obsess about their minor recruiting advantage over BYU, because it’s too painful for them to have to admit that the Utes will NEVER be able to out recruit the big boys of the PAC 12 - USC, UCLA, Stanford, Oregon and Washington - over a sustained period."

    Not so little bro! The "TRUTH" is, it's you COUGAR fans who are forced to obsess about the big boys of the Pac-12 -- i.e. USC, UCLA, Stanford, Oregon, and Washington -- because THEY'RE the only programs who can do what you guys cannot! Beat Utah -- both on the field, and in the recruiting wars.

    Bandwagon much?

    How pathetic.

    Midmajors forever.

  • 65TossPowerTrap Salmon, ID
    Feb. 12, 2018 1:27 p.m.

    I feel for Sitake. With this Indie model, he being asked to make bricks with no straw. I can only hope that the guys at BYU who wear ties and sit in leather chairs are seriously considering trash-canning this Indie mess. It was a knee-jerk reaction to Utah's entrance to the Pac-12, and will not benefit BYU in the long term. Hopefully Sitake and his experienced coaches can coach up this crew and create a new culture and team identity. In the meantime, the BYU brass needs to stop this Indie charade and get real.

  • TroyTown Anaheim, CA
    Feb. 12, 2018 1:24 p.m.

    Chris B

    I'll take USC's 4- and 5-star recruits over Utah's 2- and 3-star recruits anyday.

    2018:
    #4 USC - 5*(4), 4*(13)
    #34 Utah - 5*(0), 4*(2)

    2017:
    #4 USC - 5*(2), 4*(12)
    #33 Utah - 5*(0), 4*(3)

    2016:
    #10 USC - 5*(2), 4*(12)
    #37 Utah - 5*(0), 4*(3)

    2015:
    #2 USC - 5*(4), 4*(14)
    #34 Utah - 5*(0), 4*(2)

    2014:
    #10 USC - 5*(2), 4*(8)
    #66 Utah - 5*(0), 4*(1)

    Last five recruiting classes
    #6 USC - 5*(14), 4*(59)
    #41 Utah - 5*(0), 4*(11)

    USC's recruiting was off a little when Utah first joined the PAC 12, but it's recovered nicely.

    USC signed more 4* recruits in 2018, than Utah has signed in the last 5 years combined.

    Even more troubling for U is USC has signed more 5* recruits in the last 5 years, than Utah has signed in their entire history.

    Sorry, little red engine that couldn't, but your window of opportunity is closed.

    Let the guessing, spinning, cherry picking and half truths from the hill begin...

  • Former Coach ,
    Feb. 12, 2018 1:22 p.m.

    @Road Runner,

    This is funny, usually when teams are close, they split. If they are somewhat close, usually the lesser team wins occasionally. For example, Auburn has beaten Alabama twice in the past 7 years. Utah has won 7 in a row. Yes, they have been close as you point out. You failed to mention how many points Utah has outscored BYU in LES in the last three games. Also, you might want to reconsider your statement regarding recruiting. I understand you are making a point about star ranking, but if USC's has a massive recruiting advantage, they finished ranked 4th on 247 while Utah was 34th, 30 spots difference. BYU finished ranked 77th, 43 spots lower than Utah. If 30 spots is massive, 43 spots cannot be minor.

  • Kristjhn Bountiful, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 1:19 p.m.

    Shorter version: Sitake is way in over his head.

    As a BYU fan, the next couple of years are going to be tough.

  • steve24/7 Sandy, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 1:18 p.m.

    Problems with the culture on the football team were identified last season by a number of fans. Can that be turned around in one season? With all the new coaches, I think it can be. Time to bring on "Major Payne".

  • CO Ute PARKER, CO
    Feb. 12, 2018 1:00 p.m.

    As for the article, kudos to Mr Harmon (I'm not usually a fan of his writing) for staying objective and not turning this into a feel good story. Many of the Y fans are disappointed Detmer was let go but he is an example of a more friendly less disciplined coach that was inherent in the previous Y staff.

    As for the posters, yes stars do matter. Not every 5 star kid makes the NFL and few 2 star kids turn into all pros but in general there is a reasonable correlation between the star rating and the success of the player.

    Best part about the comments is the Y fans talking about how Utah and BYU are closely matched because of the final scores. Well, when one team always wins, despite the close scores, the teams really aren't that closely matched.

  • Mowgli54 Santa Rosa, CA
    Feb. 12, 2018 12:47 p.m.

    I am a '78 BYU grad and lifelong Californian. And for years I've gotten a kick out of how much Utah fans revel in taking pot shots at the Cougs, and vice-versa. I will add that although this is not a one way street, it seems the traffic on the Ute side is heavier.

    Nov 24. Should be a humdinger. By then both teams will have defined themselves, most likely. It is obvious what Coach Sitake is doing now to right the ship, per Coach Lamb's observations and comments. From where I sit, it seems obvious that the caliber of players Coach Kyle recruits and puts on the field is higher than BYU's. Sorry guys, but that's how I see it. Will that change, or can we win anyway? Hey, that's why we have horse races. Go Cougs.

  • blue & white Boise, ID
    Feb. 12, 2018 12:47 p.m.

    All these negative commenters are just blowing in the wind. The real proof will be the final record next fall. The changes look positive so far. One thing I think is the Y will be better . Utah on the other hand will be status quo. No closer to a PAC 12 S. Championship but a Lot of hype we have a chance.

  • FACTchequer Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 12:40 p.m.

    Road Runner

    USC signs more 4 and 5 star recruits in ONE recruiting class, than the Utes sign in a decade.

    The truth is, Utah fans are forced to obsess about their minor recruiting advantage over BYU, because it’s too painful for them to have to admit that the Utes will NEVER be able to out recruit the big boys of the PAC 12 - USC, UCLA, Stanford, Oregon and Washington - over a sustained period.

  • 1984 for life Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 12:38 p.m.

    BYU is a bad bad bad team until they prove differently.

  • Who am I sir? Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 12:39 p.m.

    On 11/28/17 Monson wrote an article "What does BYU really want to be?" Failsafe23 made a comment listing 11 reasons why BYU's recruiting is down. This article does not support BYU addressing very many of those 11 reasons. For example: #3 Not being in a conference and #5 losing. Despite the AD's assurance that independence has been better than any alternative other than a P-5 conference. Perhaps true financially but recruiting effect completely false IMO. (Do you believe in coincidence? - Only U Mass recruiting had decline more the past two years than BYU's according to a study by SBNation. Didn't U Mass go independent just a few years ago?) #5 - As a BYU fan, Duckhunter, once said to Utah "Dumb down your schedule". Next year is set and could be disastrous. BYU has 6 games scheduled against very good teams. Maybe in future years BYU should "Dumb down their schedule as in the past to where they have 2-3 good teams and the rest games that are "winnable" for BYU. (Most Ute fans would be happy to help - perhaps scheduling a BYU vs Utah game once every 10 years.)

  • Road Runner Cedar City, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 12:24 p.m.

    Chrispy

    Remind us how many 4- and 5-Star recruits
    USC, Utah and BYU have signed during the last 5 recruiting classes, combined,

    and then explain why you think that USC’s massive recruiting advantage versus Utah is “insignificant”,

    while Utah’s minor recruiting advantage versus BYU is “significant”.

    btw, if you’re forced to include many “other” factors, then you’re admitting that “stars” aren’t nearly as important as you claim.

  • loganma1 Orem, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 12:19 p.m.

    I had heard rumors from inside sources that practices were not intense like they had been during the Mendenhall era. This seems to be an admission of that. Teams with lesser "talent" can and do beat teams with greater talent in every sport. The missing ingredient is the work ethic. It does need to return.

  • Ghost Writer GILBERT, AZ
    Feb. 12, 2018 12:15 p.m.

    Last year it just seemed like the further we got into almost every game, the more the opposing defenses stifled the offense. I believe that eventually Detmer (one of my heroes) would have/could have figured this out and adjusted, but at the D1 level you don't have that luxury. Good luck, Coach Grimes. And yes, it wouldn't have taken much of an offensive uptick to beat the "Power 5" Utes.

  • Oh Really? HERRIMAN, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 12:09 p.m.

    This thread reminds me of this article and of the BYU Cougars: too much talk.

  • Road Runner Cedar City, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 12:00 p.m.

    Uncle Rico

    Margin of victory is only meaningless to U when it contradicts the current, self-serving Utah narrative.

    In 2004, Utah fans boasted about how the Utes destroyed every team they played, even though the Utes didn’t play anybody.

    What happened to a win is a win?

    One 6-point win may not be a big deal against a single opponent, but when you’ve failed to beat that same opponent by more than a touchdown 6 of the last 7 games, it’s quite obvious that there’s not much separation between the two programs.

    Utah has only outscored BYU by FIVE points, TOTAL, in the last three games played at RES, COMBINED.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 11:53 a.m.

    LOL at deep blue using the "stars aren't everything"

    You are right

    Neither is having a good QB, good running backs, fast players, good coaches, lifting weights, going to practice, watching film, scoring lots of points

    But are those VERY important? Yep, so is talent level. And the star system overwhelmingly accurately indicates the overall talent(or in byu's case lack thereof) level of a team

    But good luck with those nice 2 star choir boys doing something! You havent done anything in the last decade with that approach, but maybe next year huh?

    LOL!

  • Sanefan Wellsville, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 11:52 a.m.

    Uncle, your comment might be more meaningful if you could share with us the "star" average for the Browns and the Steelers, since my comment was a response to the overwhelmingly superior talent Utah has that produced a marginal victory over the talentless Cougars. In other words, as your post confirms, your uties post about talent level is really irrelevant, so get over it.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 11:47 a.m.

    DeepBlue

    I'd take 3-4 star kids who work hard and want to learn over 2 star choir boys who are nice kids anyday.

    If stars didnt matter, you'd see teams like byu full of 2 stars winning national titles. You dont. EVER.

    byu's average star recruiting class for 2018 is 2.1

    Tell me the last time a team won a football national title with such a horribly low class.

    This ought to be good.

  • Sanefan Wellsville, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 11:46 a.m.

    Sooner, never said BYU was "as good" as Utah. Heck, they aren't even as good as 145 programs in the country. Sayin, Utah, even with their overwhelmingly exceptional talent is not much better. In other words they stink too . Two totally different concepts.

  • worf McAllen, TX
    Feb. 12, 2018 11:45 a.m.

    IMO, the talent was there, but too many players struggled with the honor code, and coaches were too soft.

    Coaches matter! Had Alabama coaches been BYU coaches,---a 4-9 record wouldn't have happened.

    IMO, Sitake has corrected the ship.

  • 4601 Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 11:36 a.m.

    If power ranking and the number of stars a recruit has were the only important determinants, you wouldn't need to play the game and one could let analytics decide the winner. Coaching football is difficult and coaching young men is more so. Sitake is learning that.

  • Uncle Rico Provo, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 11:32 a.m.

    Sanefan - Wellsville, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 10:56 a.m.
    And to think this BYU team that has no talent lost to the mighty PAC 12 Utes by a measly 6 points. Hmmm, interesting. Very, Very interesting.

    --------------
    It was the Utah qbs first career start and Utah OC first game against a FBS opponent, and it was on the road. Most teams would be happy with 6 point win.

    Margin of victory means nothing - a win is a win.

    The 0-16 Browns lost to the playoff Steelers twice this season, but only by 3 and 4 points, so the Browns must be almost as good, right?

    Wins and losses matter.

  • matman Provo, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 11:23 a.m.

    @Chris

    I love that you do research on BYU so we fans don't have to. Thanks for your service sir.

  • SoonerUte Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 11:17 a.m.

    Sanefan - Wellsville, UT "And to think this BYU team that has no talent lost to the mighty PAC 12 Utes by a measly 6 points."
    You also lost to UMass by a measly 6 points.

    Do you also comment on sports articles in the Boston newspapers?
    "Hey UMass -- we were almost as good as you!"

  • DeepBlue Anaheim, CA
    Feb. 12, 2018 11:08 a.m.

    Sanefan

    Did you even bother reading the article, or are you just spouting off?

    -----------------

    Chris B

    I'll take a team full of eager to learn, play hard on every down, walkons and 2-stars,

    any day,

    over a team full of know it all, primadonna 4-stars.

    If talent and star ratings alone were the determining factors,

    Utah would NEVER beat USC again.

  • Sanefan Wellsville, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 10:56 a.m.

    And to think this BYU team that has no talent lost to the mighty PAC 12 Utes by a measly 6 points. Hmmm, interesting. Very, Very interesting.

  • Sanefan Wellsville, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 10:46 a.m.

    Well it looks like the "good times approach"didn't lead to very good results. In fact, they were horrible. There is a huge lesson to be learned; structure and discipline lead to success. Every successful business person knows this. Sitaki seemed to care more about the players liking him and the coaching staff than being a successful coach. It's akin to a parent wanting to be their child's friend rather than parenting them. Advice to Sitaki, these kids have friends, they need a coach who can instill structure, discipline and respect.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 10:43 a.m.

    What he needed to tweak was the talent level. And he didn’t. BYU’s recruiting class was ranked lower than the university of North Texas. LOL!

    Byu has terrible players and kalani has done nothing to improve that in his 3 years.

    I called it from day one, the “kalani effect” was smoke and mirrors, no substance