@FrozenFractals - I've heard the argument that the wall is anti-immigrant
and racist before. That makes no sense.A wall doesn't look at
someone before becoming a barrier. It doesn't have the ability to
discriminate on any basis. It blocks everyone from going through. It would
only be anti-immigrant if it didn't allow for ports of entry, where
immigrants with permission can pass through without indignity or harassment.A wall simply keeps someone from passing over a line who isn't
supposed to. True, the countries south of the border are predominately
Hispanic. And it can be argued that Trump is bigoted. Neither of those facts
makes a wall racist. The fact that over 300,000 people are caught trying to
cross that border illegally each year indicates a problem.A wall
won't stop them all, and no, it doesn't do anything about people
overstaying visas. It is merely one effective measure that should be adopted as
part of a complex set of measures to secure our borders and ports, and clean up
or immigration system so we can ensure (as much as possible) that people who
should be here can be, and people who shouldn't (criminals, etc)
@Blue - History has actually shown that walls do work, for good and bad,
depending on where and why they are put up. As with any other solution, the
outcome is a matter of expectations and implementation.Speaking of
history, did you know that Presidents Clinton, Bush 43 and Obama all pushed for
and funded the building of different sections of the 650 miles of US-Mexico
border wall we currently have? Data over the 20 or so years since they started
going up has shown that in areas with the walls, immigration and other border
problems have dropped up to 90%. Walls work.
@Impartial7 - What proof is there that a wall would be ineffective? It depends
on what effect is expected. If we expect it to stop all illegal immigration and
other border problems, then no, it won't be effective. No one solution
would be.But if, as the border patrol and homeland security are
advocating, we build walls where natural terrain make it very easy to cross the
border, it would have the desired effects of dissuading illegal immigration and
encouraging immigrants to cross the border where they are intended to cross - at
border ports of entry.A wall isn't the only solution, and it
isn't just Trump's or conservatives' solution either. Presidents
Clinton, Bush 43 and Obama all built parts of the 650 miles of currently
existing US-Mexico border walls. And they have been shown to be effective in
those areas, cutting certain problems by as much as 90%.
@patrioticAMERICAN - People who only watch ABC/NBC/CBS will only get one side of
the story as well. Almost every news outlet leans one way or the other, even
PBS and NPR. There is a lot of "news" that is simply opinion being
reported as fact. It's becoming a wild and crazy world out there...
Rick for Truth - Provo, UTJan. 7, 2019 11:22 a.m."The federal
workers need to recognize that the liberals in congress do not care about them.
When liberals in congress choose to protect US citizens over illegal aliens, and
drug cartel criminals then the government shutdown will end. This is not about
money, this is about liberals in congress denying President Trump any political
achievement and at any cost."Well Rick, your comment sounds like
you are describing what Republicans did to Obama for 8 years. "One
term-president" was the battle cry of Republicans and McConnell as they
failed to support a single thing that Obama tried to get done. The Republicans
played dirty and now you're complaining that Dems aren't willing to
give Republicans a rubber stamp on everything they want to do?Remember, Trump said he would build a wall and Mexico would pay for it. What
part of that do you not understand?
@2bits again: "The President can't use his veto till a bill passes and
is waiting for his signature. He can warn he will veto, but he can't veto
it till it passes. You said he already veto'd one bill. That's
factually false."Really. I went back and read my post.
Couldn't find the word veto in there. Perhaps you have me confused with
another commenter. Which makes your post "factually false".
@Frozen Fractals:"The one who started the fight is the one that
demanded something different from a continuing resolution."A
continuing resolution (CD) is merely the continuation of the current level of
spending which is used to allow Congress for additional time to put together a
detailed budget. That does not mean the CD cannot include other items that
either the president or the congress wishes to be funded.The reason
for the shut down is because the Democrats in congress dislike (actually hate)
Trump for steeling the last election from their candidate and they're doing
all they can to move toward impeached. They need to grow up and take on the
character of mature adults.
To "Frozen Fractals" but pet projects have always been part of the
Continuing Resolution process. In 2016 Obama wanted the Continuing Resolution to
include funding to combat the Zinka virus around the world, construction at the
VA, drug rehab centers, programs to attract businesses, and other pet
projects.So, to say that requesting the border wall be included in
the funding for the federal government is NOT out of the ordinary.If
Clinton was the POTUS, and the Republicans kept sending bills that were vetoed,
I would say get together a veto proof bill or else do what the constitution says
and get enough votes to override the veto. If they started the fight, I would
say they started the fight.
@Redshirt1701"It is the Democrats that started the fight. The
Republicans were all ready to just give Trump the money, it was the Democrats
that started filibustering and now refuse to fund the wall. "The
one who started the fight is the one that demanded something different from a
continuing resolution. That is Trump and his demands for a wall. Just like the
Democrats rejected a continuing resolution for a bit a year ago because they
wanted DACA reinstated. Democratic opposition to the wall and Republican
opposition to reinstating DACA in the previous shutdown do not make them
responsible for the respective shutdowns. Do you believe that if a
President Clinton refused to sign a budget unless it included DACA it'd be
the Republicans causing the shutdown if they refused to add that in? I
don't think so. You'd say it was Clinton because she'd be trying
to add in something extra. That she'd be the one starting the argument.
That she'd be the one refusing to separate that into a discussion about
immigration reform. That she'd be the one shutting down the government. And
you'd be right. Since it'd be just like Trump's shutdown now.
@JoeBlow:"Who is to blame for the shutdown?"Both the
president and congress are to blame for the shutdown. The president because he
wants money to secure the border and won't sign a bill that does not have
the money in it. The Democrats in Congress because they won't appropriate
the money for the wall.Here's the interesting part... The
Democrats who are blocking the funding of the president's wall have
insisted, a few years back, that our border with Mexico needed to be secured
with some kind of barrier. But we need a wall and not a fence. With a fence, the
wires can be snipped with a pair of wire cutters and illegals can just walk
through onto US soil... never to leave.The real reasons that the
Democrats in Congress don't want the wall is (10) they are irate at Trump
for beating their presidential candidate in the last election and just
can't get over it. And (2) they want immigrants to come to the US
(illegally or otherwise) to build their voter base. Illegals are not supposed to
be allowed to vote for federal offices. Yet, in sanctuary cities they are
"He (Trump) didn't say Mexico would provide payment in advance for the
wall."What do you think the audience at all his arena shows thought he
meant when he asked who's going to pay for it and they all screamed
"Mexico"?"Trump says he would force Mexico to pay for
the wall by threatening to cut off the flow of $24 billion in payments that
immigrants send home to that country. Pay the $5 billion to build the wall and
the cut off of flow of money will not go into effect."Yeah. Trump
says. What do you suppose the court says?"And he will
incentivize businesses who've moved to Mexico, to move back to the
US."Uh huh. Because somehow they'll be happy to pay for the wall.
You entice business back here by, among other means, giving them huge tax
relief. Less revenue to pay for things like walls, not more.
To "Lia" what are you talking about???
It would be so easy for Congress to re-open the government, and be the heros.Just give the President part of what he requested and move on. Even if
you gave him all of what he requested it's less than .0001% of the budget.
Fed Gov spends $6.85 million per minute.The 2019 budget is $4.407
trillion. If you throw in $5 Billion it wouldn't even appear in that
number, it wouldn't even affect the rounding. It would still be $4.407
trillion. It's so minuscule... just give it to him and open the
government!But no... we can't.That would give
Trump something he promised. Something Democrats must prevent from happening..
at all costs.Why not just give him the security funding that
isn't even a thousandth of the budget?If a barrier stops a drug
smuggler from getting across the border (and all Presidents since Reagan have
said we need one)... it's worth it.If it doesn't work...
you can use that against Trump in the next election.Just do it.And I agree that McConnell and the Senate are the main problem Fred
(same as Harry Reid 2007 to 2015). The HOR has passed a budget that includes
the funding requested. But Senate won't vote on it. McConnell's
"And these are the same Democrats that gave Obama a trillion dollars for
infrastructure which by the way still needs repaired. "No they
didn't. There was no trillion dollar infrastructure bill passed during the
Obama administration. Facts my friend facts.The closest there was
is the 800 billion dollar stimulus package that had infrastructure in it but
also had social programs, and other spending. " the American
Recovery and Reinvestment Act "initiated more than 13,000 projects through
the Federal Highway Administration, improving more than 42,000 miles of road and
more than 2,700 bridges." More needs to be done? Of course it does and
Trump promised to spend a trillion dollars to do it.BTW you would be
on the road to Keeping America Great if you spent 1 trillion or 25 billion on
infrastructure rather than a useless wall.
Redshorts---The GOP squashed everything Obama tried to do.And those
were INTELLIGENT things...unlike trump fantasyland ideas.
To "Impartial7" when did Congress pass a budget? They have not passed a
budget since 2006. They keep passing continuing resolutions, which are not
budgets.To "Open Minded Mormon" and what have Democrats done
since taking control? Have they passed a budget? Have they proposed any sort of
resolution that would fund the government that would be acceptable to the Senate
and the POTUS? Right now the Democrats are no better than the GOP.To
"Frozen Fractals " you are wrong. It is the Democrats that started the
fight. The Republicans were all ready to just give Trump the money, it was the
Democrats that started filibustering and now refuse to fund the wall. You
can't blame Trump for what the Democrats started.
And these are the same Democrats that gave Obama a trillion dollars for
infrastructure which by the way still needs repaired. We all have fences,
we all lock our doors, we all keep the windows shut and locked. Nobody is
against immigrants, just do it the right way, like every country in the world
"Trump says he would force Mexico to pay for the wall by threatening to cut
off the flow of $24 billion in payments that immigrants send home to that
country. Pay the $5 billion to build the wall and the cut off of flow of money
will not go into effect."That's not the promise Trump made
to get elected. Go watch the montage on YouTube. This whole money coming from
immigrant payments came in the form of the "border wall funding act" in
2017. Well after the campaign. In addition it's now been
reported that the whole wall idea was concocted as a memory trick to get Trump
to talk about immigration. The whole thing is a huge political scam as
evidenced by the phony statistics used to support it.Fund everything
but DHS and then fight over the wall in the context that it belongs.
barfolomew - Tooele, UTThis isn't about Pelosi, or Clinton, or
Obama, move on if you're going to make an argument. Trump has
said he'll sign the bill to open the government if it has money in it for
the wall. He started at $25B (which the Dem's voted for in 2018), went down
to $5B and now will settle for about $2-3B. Pelosi said she won't give a
dollar for the wall. "Did you notice that you just said Trump
came up with a $25 Billion figure that you support, but now both of you are
willing to settle for $2-3 Billion. You were happy with Trump overspending by
$23 Billion? Typical Republican thinking."So, this is what
I'm wondering: If it's so little money ($2-3B is a drop in our
bucket), and the wall won't make a difference anyway"Since
it won't make a difference as you said, why spend the money at all or build
a wall that won't make a difference? Thanks for supporting the
@Neanderthal;If you believe Trump can get Mexico to pay for the wall
after the fact, I have a bridge over the Grand Canyon to sell you.
Who is to blame for the shutdown? Well, it obviously depends on who you ask.And typically, those answers are situational and not consistent by any
means.I look at it like this.Whoever looks to change the
status quo should get the blame for a shutdown. And I am consistent.Recent examples.- When the GOP looked to invalidate (defund) the ACA
which was the law of the land, they would get the blame for the shutdown. See,
they wanted to change the status quo.-This current shutdown is
again, the causing of the GOP. They are looking to change/add funding to
something that is not currently status quo. They get the blame.Now,
this is not about whether or not you agree with "changing the status
quo". But, it is about blaming those who DO attempt to change it.And, lets not forget that Trump has stated that he was proud to be the person
to shut it down this time. And he accepted blame. Well, at least until he
@Hutterite:"Once or twice he told us Mexico would pay for the
wall."He (Trump) didn't say Mexico would provide payment in
advance for the wall.Trump says he would force Mexico to pay for the
wall by threatening to cut off the flow of $24 billion in payments that
immigrants send home to that country. Pay the $5 billion to build the wall and
the cut off of flow of money will not go into effect.And he will
incentivize businesses who've moved to Mexico, to move back to the US.
@barfolomew"Trump has said he'll sign the bill to open the
government if it has money in it for the wall. He started at $25B (which the
Dem's voted for in 2018), went down to $5B and now will settle for about
$2-3B. Pelosi said she won't give a dollar for the wall."That 25 billion dollar wall which Democrats reluctantly agreed to was part of
a proposal where the core feature the Democrats wanted was reinstatement of
DACA. Negotiations involve both sides getting something, not just one side
getting some of what it wants and the other side getting nothing."So, this is what I'm wondering: If it's so little money ($2-3B
is a drop in our bucket), and the wall won't make a difference anyway, then
why won't the Dem's just let him have it?"It is
irresponsible to set a precedent whereby holding federal workers hostage is
considered effective strategy. It is illogical to make a "deal" whereby
you get absolutely nothing (having a functional gov't should be a
non-partisan interest). A wall is a waste of money, a monument to anti-immigrant
and racist sentiments, has environmental harms, and is an eminent domain
@2bits"Did you say the same thing when President Obama shutdown the
government until Congress would give him funding for HIS priority (The ACA)? It
was the exact same situation."No, it is not. The fight was not
over passing the ACA, the ACA was already law. The fight-picking was over a
change in law, specifically Republicans demanding defunding of the ACA.
Similarly continuation of Planned Parenthood funding is the status quo but
attempting to defund it would be a status change and a fight picked.If the current shutdown were a situation where Congress had passed a bill that
called for 20 billion for the wall a few months ago but Democrats were now
demanding it be defunded, then that would be an equivalent situation to that ACA
fight and Democrats would be at fault for the shutdown because they would be the
ones picking a fight to change the status quo. But that is not what this is,
this is trump wanting to change the status quo by getting money for a wall.
@Rick for truth"The federal workers need to recognize that the
liberals in congress do not care about them."Nonsense. The
senate passed a continuing resolution with unanimous consent a couple weeks ago
but because Trump didn't want to sign it the House didn't vote it. Now
McConnell is refusing to hold a vote on the exact same thing that Pelosi just
sent them.The cause of a shutdown is because someone wanted to
interject a fight into the budget. That is Trump with his demand for wall
funding. The three day shutdown a year ago was Democrats' fault because
they were demanding reinstatement of DACA. Claims that Democrats are causing
this one or that Republicans caused the one a year ago are just baseless.
2 bits, I agree with you. The shutdown is on McConnell. The House had passed a
budget and he won't bring it to the Senate floor for an up or down vote.
Not on Trump at this point, this is on McConnell. Can't very well send a
budget to the President if the Senate won't participate in the process.
@rick truthI think you are making arguments that fit your ideology
but attacking democrats for doing the same thing. The truth is you do not know
if the wall will accomplish what trump says it will. However that
doesn’t matter. Trump shutdown the government over his wall. Congress is
in charge of funding not trump and if they don’t want fund something they
don’t have to. Trump should negotiate the wall separately.
Out of 330 million Americans these 535 people are the best we can do?We have been waiting since 1986 for the promises made by Congress regarding
illegal immigration to be realized. I feel bad for those who have delayed
paychecks but it's time for things to be taken care of.
The notion that Democrats want “open borders” is just jaw-dropping.
Couple of things:The vast majority of illegal immigrants
in the US are here because they overstayed their visas. The number
of illegals in the US is now lower than it’s been for many years. Drugs come into the country packaged with other goods being sent here
through our ports. History makes it clear - walls don’t work.
We’ve got a zillion better things to spend money on than this dumb wall
idea. Shutting down government is causing serious economic harm,
and for what? The president’s personal insecurities and fear of FOX News
@PatrioticRE: "You are definitely wrong"...---OK.
Tell me the Bill ID that passed the HOR and Senate and was veto'd, so I can
google it."Presidential Veto Power" is when the President
doesn't sign a bill passed by Congress. Google "veto power of us
president" to learn how it works.McConnell/Senate not passing a
bill is NOT a Presidential Veto.The President can't use his
veto till a bill passes and is waiting for his signature. He can warn he will
veto, but he can't veto it till it passes. You said he already veto'd
one bill. That's factually false.I agree Congress is keeping
Trump from using his veto power. But he hasn't used it yet (as you
falsely claimed).Google "Trump And The Presidential Veto"
(AboveTheLaw)...They said, "We start this short analysis with
the observation that Trump hasn’t vetoed a single bill. He’s the
first president since James Garfield to act that way, and Garfield was only in
office six and a half months before being shot dead"..
@scrappy do - DRAPER, UTJan. 7, 2019 1:58 p.m.It is a travesty that
Democrats pick a fight because they like open borders.. "I see
why you like Trump so much. You both share a blatant disregard for truth. Fact is Democrats, nor most Americans want open borders. Fact is they want
legal, controlled immigration. Fact is tons of illegals work on farms,
construction projects, plants, etc. owned by Republicans. Fact is, Trump's
wall would be ineffective. Fact is Trump promised that no US taxpayer dollars
were to be used for his wall-Mexico will pay for it. Trump's inability to
keep his word is what is causing the shutdown.
RE: Rick "No, well that is the policy and action of the Democrat
party, to force us to accept everyone and pay for everything who wants in. "
- I 'm not sure where you get your reference of the immigration
policies of Democrats - Fox news or talk radio but I would suggest a quick
perusal of objective news sources.Further discussion without having facts
as a basis of making an argument is only whining.
It is a travesty that Democrats pick a fight because they like open borders..
Trump can shut down everything for the next 2 years as far as I am concerned
patrioticAMERICAN - South Jordan, UT@2 bits: "Pass a budget and
he will be under pressure to sign it. The pressure's on Congress until they
pass it. hmmmm.... You are definitely wrong here... McConnell said
he would not send up the same bill that the House and Senate voted on previously
because Trump veto'd it again. McConnell warned Pelosi not to do it, but
she went that way anyways. Why waste the effort if you already know the results?
McConnell is not really worried about Trump looking weak, but he realizes the
futility of sending a budget up that does not have money for the wall in it.The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and
expecting different results. So I believe Congress controlled by both parties
have demonstrated this concept many times over the past two decades.
OK, so the Dem's claim to be about helping Americans. They're yelling
about how the shutdown is hurting Americans. They also tell us that the reason
that they won't fund the "wall" is because, "walls don't
work" (although Pelosi, Schumer, Clinton and Obama all have walls and/or
fences around their homes). They claim walls will do nothing to stop illegals,
drugs, human trafficking, etc. Trump has said he'll sign the
bill to open the government if it has money in it for the wall. He started at
$25B (which the Dem's voted for in 2018), went down to $5B and now will
settle for about $2-3B. Pelosi said she won't give a dollar for the wall.
So, this is what I'm wondering: If it's so little money
($2-3B is a drop in our bucket), and the wall won't make a difference
anyway, then why won't the Dem's just let him have it? Won't that
"help" Americans by putting them back to work? I mean, what the heck? If
a wall is useless either way and reopening the gov't will help those
Americans, then why not give it to him? Fact is, they hate Donald
Trump more than they care about any of us and refuse to let him have any success
even at the expense of you and me.
@2 bits: "Pass a budget and he will be under pressure to sign it. The
pressure's on Congress until they pass it. Then the pressure passes to the
President and he has to explain why he signed it or didn't sign it into
law. So far they haven't given him a budget to sign."Wrong!
McConnel(& the GOP) hasn't given him a bill to sign because he
doesn't want the Pres. to look weak. The Dem-controlled House passed a
budget--the same one that the Senate already passed at the end of last year,
& which the GOP-controlled House refused to take up because Trump went back
on his word & threw a hisssy fit, following thru on part of a threat to
force a gov't shutdown (not on his promise to "own it" himself
& to *not* blame Dems!).This shutdown, which started when Repubs
had control of all 3 branches of govt, is solely owned by Trump & Repubs,
& no matter how much they try to deflect the blame to the Dems, those people
that are hurting because of it will remember that when it comes time to vote in
2020.People whose only newsource is Fox News & conservative talk
radio will never get the full facts of any situation, just the propaganda
peddled by the WH. Try watching PBS Newshour once in awhile.
RE: SteveDo you have a fence? Lock your doors? Is your property open to
anyone who chooses to move in and stay? Do you invite everyone who want to stay
in your home unlimited visitation, comfort, food, and money for all of their
desires? No, well that is the policy and action of the Democrat party, to force
us to accept everyone and pay for everything who wants in. Sorry but I cannot
and will not support this policy.
@Impartial7RE: "Congress had a budget, that Trump agreed to
sign"...---Until a budget passes in the House and the Senate the
President can't sign it.Pass a budget and he will be under
pressure to sign it.The pressure's on Congress until they pass
it. Then the pressure passes to the President and he has to explain why he
signed it or didn't sign it into law.So far they haven't
given him a budget to sign.President Reagan turned down budgets that
didn't have the spending cuts he requested. Democrats unwilling to give
him even half of the spending cuts he requested shutdown the government 4 times
when Reagan was President.This didn't start with Trump, or
Obama.Google "Government shutdowns in the United States -
@Open Minded MormonRE: "Ralph is wrongly trying spin and blame this on
the Democrats in the new 116th Congress"...---Wrong.Ralph didn't blame one side. Read the letter. And he never mentioned
the 116th Congress. You are the one blaming only one side, or one session of
Congress, not him.===RE: "Trump is using this nation
as like a hostage in a stand-off"...---Did you say the same
thing when President Obama shutdown the government until Congress would give him
funding for HIS priority (The ACA)? It was the exact same situation. So if
you didn't say it then...===RE: "Dealing with
truth & reality - no spin"...---Oh Boy... you could really
use some of your own advice.===Most of the 116th
Congress was part of the 115th Congress that failed to send a single budget bill
to the President to sign. So they still own it, along with the President, and
need to fix it. By giving him a budget bill to sign.He can't
sign a bill to fund the government if you don't pass one!Pass
one and put the pressure on him to sign it.Put a little funding for
Border Security in that budget and I'll bet he will sign it.
Rick for Truth - Provo, UT...and following Trump? LOL!
Ralph is wrongly trying spin and blame this on the Democrats in the new 116th
Congress -- 1. The Shutdown happened on the GOP watch in the 115th
Congress.2. Trump owns it, solely, by, in and of himself:Sec.
11, 2018 ~ “I am proud to shut down the government for border
security, Chuck (Schumer),” Trump declared. “So I will take the
mantle. I will be the one to shut it down. I won’t blame you for
it.”This is Donald Trump's Shutdown Trump is using
this nation as like a hostage in a stand-off.Dealing with truth
& reality - no spin.
RE: RickYou are correct on one point - This is not about money.And
this effort to build a wall is not about stopping illegal immigrants, nor drugs
nor any other boogeyman you want to come up with - it is about one person's
fever dream of a campaign promise - "Build a wall, Mexico will pay for
it".This is just the latest in a long line of distractions and
deflections from a cornered individual.Emergency powers?What's
next Marshall law?
Congress had a budget, that Trump agreed to sign. Then he went back to watching
TV and heard FOX, Rush and Ann that he was backing down from building a wall (no
mention of backing off his promise that Mexico was paying). Then he changed is
mind. He went on major networks and claimed the shutdown was his . In fact he
was "Proud to own the shutdown". Now, that people are outraged, and
rightly so, Trump and the GOP are claiming it's the Democrats fault. And,
many of Trump's gullible supporters believe it.
Amidst the phony statistics you hear from the trumpaganda team (especially
yesterday) there is a recurring mantra. Trump, America's 'friend of
the workin' man', is willing to let this go on for months or years.
He's no friend of those who work for him. Mind you, there's probably a
lot of people in Atlantic City who feel the same way. He's not
suffering. He's never been one of us. Never. It can only be a short period
of time now that federal employees are going to have to start leaving in droves
to find other work. It'll be a huge blow to our public institutions. Once or twice he told us Mexico would pay for the wall. Before Christmas, they
said he'd sign a spending bill and that 'they had other ways to get
the money' for the wall. Then, state TV told him to hold us hostage for the
wall instead. And, here we are. It's a travesty, for sure. But it
could well get worse. It's clear the next strategy is to cook up an
'emergency' situation that the wall will fix, and once you've
established an emergency, who knows what else you can do with it?
The federal workers need to recognize that the liberals in congress do not care
about them. When liberals in congress choose to protect US citizens over
illegal aliens, and drug cartel criminals then the government shutdown will end.
This is not about money, this is about liberals in congress denying President
Trump any political achievement and at any cost. If you look at the security
measures of Obama, Pelosi, Schumer, and the DNC, all include armed security
guards and a Fence or Wall. Yep, the very thing they are intentionally denying
America, they themselves use everyday.